Poster: Doomkeeper at 1/14/2006 10:21:23 PM PST
Subject: comparing classes |
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I hope this post will stop a lot of misinformed and generally misguided players from ever making confusing and backwards posts.
YOU CANNOT COMPARE CLASSES. there are too many factors to consider, coming from endless areas of the game. People who try and compare classes, and even same-class spec'd, need to stop doing so, as they will never get anywhere. EACH CLASS IS UNIQUE, and should be treated so. stop trying to say warriors are overpowered because they can hit for 1,000 damage, just because a rogue crits for 500. You simply cannot compare numbers.
Hopefully this will keep some people from posting rediculous notions about how one class is better than the other, AS ALL CLASSES ARE SITUATIONAL, in every aspect of the game.
Incase someone doesn't get it, the capitalized comments are the key reasons as to why you should stop trying to say a hunter is better than a warlock, or why that shaman should be nerfed because a paladin can go immune, (totally unrelated ideas, but this is the kind of silliness people come up with).[ post edited by Doomkeeper ]
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=737237&p=#post737237 | | | Poster: Tseric at 1/14/2006 10:30:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: COMPARING CLASSES |
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You make a salient point, particularly in the respect that all classes are situational. I would say that each class operates differently under circumstances. Circumstances vary greatly in PvE and PvP. There are a great many factors to be considered. If we are to discuss issues as objectively as possible, it is best to focus on a single ability or skill and see how it changes in situations.
Aside from that, can you please edit your subject line so it isn't in all caps, please?
Observational bias is part of science, life, etc.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=737237&p=#post737253 | Poster: Tseric at 1/14/2006 10:30:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: COMPARING CLASSES *edited post* |
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You make a salient point, particularly in the respect that all classes are situational. I would say that each class operates differently under circumstances. Circumstances vary greatly in PvE and PvP. There are a great many factors to be considered. If we are to discuss issues as objectively as possible, it is best to focus on a single ability or skill and see how it changes in situations.
Aside from that, can you please edit your subject line so it isn't in all caps, please?
EDIT- thanks, Doomkeeper :D[ post edited by Tseric ]
Observational bias is part of science, life, etc.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=737237&p=#post737253 | Poster: Tseric at 1/14/2006 10:57:51 PM PST
Subject: Re: comparing classes |
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Q u o t e:
This is false, and comes from misinformed players, such as yourself. Nerfs are largely based on "overpowered" abilities and events, that were not meant to be so. Blizzard didn't nerf enrage, for example, because rogues were being annihilated by it. They nerfed it because it was doing more damage than expected, because players (due to random chance and significantly more play/test time) have found ways to make it very strong (too strong in the eyes of blizzard). THIS IS HOW NEARLY ALL NERFS WORK. It is not a comparison of classes that gets classes buffed/nerfed. It is the interaction with other classes, and the outcomes of such, that prompt changes. So, to answer your question, no, we still cannot compare TOTALLY UNIQUE AND SEPERATE classes. Get it now?
More winning and insightful commentary. I am often impressed at how the vast majority of players regard nerfs/buffs as out-of-the-blue and totally misdirected. These claims are almost always centered around the individual's playstyle. People will continue to deny it up and down, but this game really is based on a paper-rock-scissors theory. Yet people continue to make one-to-one comparisons.
Go ahead, compare rogues and warriors in a one-to-one scenario. Perhaps that rogue can use the methods previously described; it is possible. But, more often than not, the warrior will find them and kill them. I've played enough with a warrior and talked enough with the devs to understand this is a design philosophy and a common occurrance. Compare mages, now...different story.
Observational bias is part of science, life, etc.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=737237&p=#post737339 | Poster: Tseric at 1/14/2006 11:07:41 PM PST
Subject: Re: comparing classes |
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Q u o t e:
Once again, I disagree. Don't you think that when hunters got thier major overhaul, one of the reasons was because they mainly couldn't do anything in PvP? Now, they can truly own in PvP in a lot of situations. The devs obviously sat down and decided they needed to balance things out a bit for the hunters and bring them up to par. This takes COMPARISON.
Why is that so hard to understand? Honestly, how can you attest for all of the dramatic changes made to some classes? You have to look OVERALL at each classes abilites in PvE and PvP. Serisouly, it's just plain ignorant to say in caps "YOU CANNOT COMPARE CLASSES."
What is really being compared in cases like that are various ranges of damage, crit%, etc. In cases like the hunter, they are investing thought into abilites and developing how they are not like other classes. It is not a comparison, it is a contrast. There is an important cognative difference in maintaining distinction and equivalence, as opposed to comparability and seperation.
EDIT- commas...for pause[ post edited by Tseric ]
Observational bias is part of science, life, etc.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=737237&p=#post737369 | Poster: Tseric at 1/14/2006 11:13:45 PM PST
Subject: Re: comparing classes |
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Q u o t e:
Its not Rock-Paper-Scissor if some specs have virtually no chance against another spec. So a build is even against some, slightly better then some, slightly worse then some. However, as it stands now, there are some spec builds that are virtually impossible to overcome by certain classes. The fights aren't even remotely close. This is between two equally skilled players with equal gear, and a spec is so superior that its nearly impossible to overcome.
Ummm...you are describing the R-P-S scenario right here. Rock will win over Scissors, guaranteed. Scissors over Paper, guaranteed. Etc.
Now, this isn't so hard and fast in the development of classes. It really works out that some classes and/or specs have a natural and sizeable advantage over others.
Observational bias is part of science, life, etc.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=737237&p=#post737387 | Poster: Tseric at 1/14/2006 11:18:40 PM PST
Subject: Re: comparing classes |
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Q u o t e:
i dont know doom.
if you played a rogue, i think you'd find warriors and rogues somewhat easy to compare.
especially combat rogues and fury warriors.
Of course there is some overlap in specs. Especially from similar damage/class types (melee/caster). A combat rogue and a fury warrior? Of course they are similar, they are trying to be similar, just like a shadow priest is a wannabe warlock. In a R-P-S class balance, you want to have a certain hybridization among classes and talent builds. Otherwise you end up pidgeon-holing players into a class. That is tantamount to telling a player to "learn to play" by game design. Can you dig that fact?
Observational bias is part of science, life, etc.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=737237&p=#post737403 | Poster: Tseric at 1/15/2006 12:36:20 AM PST
Subject: Re: comparing classes |
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Q u o t e:
"they change things because it unbalances the game as a whole." Ahhh yes, more insightful, winning commentary here. You getting tired or something? You are not making much sense anymore.
Finally, (as I'm done trying to have a reasonable debate with you) just because the classes are unique does not mean you can't compare them. It IS possible to discern, compare, contrast, 1 class vs all, in general terms. And if you just can't comprehend that, I'm truly sorry you are so limited. Good night.
Doom isn't saying there are no comparisons to be made. He is simply saying that this 1-to-1 comparison that is commonly engaged on the boards is missing the point. You are right, it is possible to compare and contrast. Doom (and I and the devs, for that matter) are merely putting the stress on contrast. Hundreds of players a day post about how "that one ability owned me! It's not fair!". What they don't post about is how another class' ability owned the guy they were complaining about. Warriors can get hurt by mages; mages can get hurt by warlocks; warlocks can get hurt by priests, etc.
Most people focus on how one class is detrimental, rather than how the overall game mechanics allow for group PvP. A dueling mentality over a group mentality.
Observational bias is part of science, life, etc.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=737237&p=#post737590 | Poster: Tseric at 1/15/2006 12:38:48 AM PST
Subject: Re: comparing classes |
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Q u o t e:
I didn't really agree about warriors generally having an advantage over rogues, but then thinking about it I really don't take note of rogues that aren't at least lieutenant-generals. I do normally mow down the others while barely thinking about it.
But the rogues I just can't beat are experienced and in gear that is at least equal to mine. Rogues have amazing ability to control a fight, enough that if I beat one of similar rank it is because he's been caught off guard in some way -- if both players are equally prepared or the warrior is caught off guard, the rogue cannot lose no matter how well the warrior plays.
Maybe things will be different when I get a better weapon, but with lieutenant-commander's PvP gear supplemented by a few battleground epics, I just don't do sufficient damage to kill a rogue with similar experience and gear. Enrage used to help if I had it on the majority of my attacks, now I need to get extremely lucky on crits. I get a total of 3-6 hits including things like hamstring, and I'm just not doing enough damage to survive the fight.
Before level 60 rogues were the one class I could count on fighting, but after 60 the bad rogues stop playing and warriors become much more reliant on DPS to survive PvP.
Like I said though, it's really only rogues of similar or higher rank that I can't beat, so I guess my real gripe is that if a rogue plays perfectly, they can't lose to a warrior that plays perfectly. relative skill of the players only matters among less skilled players; at the higher levels of competition the rogues ability to control the fight is too reliable to be countered by warriors.
I don't really disagree with you, but again, you are looking at this in a 1-to-1 scenario.
Observational bias is part of science, life, etc.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=737237&p=#post737593 | Poster: Tseric at 1/15/2006 2:22:44 AM PST
Subject: Re: comparing classes |
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Q u o t e:
I have said on the forums of many mmo's that rock/scissors/paper is the only way to balance classes for pvp. It also happens to be the more interesting way, because it encourages strategy on a team level.
Tseric, I have an honest quest that I have been trying to answer since I was level 12ish or so in my first battleground: if I am rock, who exactly is my scissors in this game? I heard rogues are, later on in my career, but.. that's like, one out of eight or nine, depending on your viewpoint. Doesn't exactly seem right? What do you think?
As Ahin said, hunters are better targets, as they have a harder time keeping warriors at distance. With rogues in high-end, yeah it's better if you get the drop on them as it is for them to get the drop on you. If you can trinket out of snares, druids are not so bad, but they heal and that's a pain. Provided the proper situations, clothies aren't so bad in general, given group support. Even in R-P-S, group dynamics are emphasized. It is why priests have dispel magic and mages have dispel curse and warlocks have no dispels and shaman/pallys have cleanse/purge and they tell two friends and they tell two friends...[ post edited by Tseric ]
Observational bias is part of science, life, etc.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=737237&p=#post737753 | Poster: Tseric at 1/15/2006 2:40:56 AM PST
Subject: Re: comparing classes |
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Q u o t e:
Well, ok a few different thoughts on this -
As far as trinketing my way out of snares and roots, I only have one trinket and its on a timer that prohibits me from using it more than once per fight, realistically. Maybe once I make myself some ornate mithril boots I'll feel that I have more options. But those options will NEVER compare to my druid opponent, who can effortless break any hiderence of movement that is even contemplated on him.
My perception of druids in the 10-19 battlegrounds were that they were easy targets. My perception changed around level 30 or so, and I now think of them as gods. If they wish to be a tougher tank than me, they can do that. If they wish to heal themselves almost instantly to full they can do that. If they do not wish to be slowed down they are not slowed down. If they wish to stealth they do that. If they wish to move rapidly they do that. Is there anything they cannot do? I really cannot agree that Druids are an easy fight for me.
About Hunters, though, I have to go on tangent, and share with you guys that I had the BEST "duel" of my WoW career, and possibly one of the most memorable in pvp generally for some time, against a hunter tonight in AB. This hunter was much more competent than most I had fought. He almost seemed to know exactly what my Intercept timer was, and always had a frost trap waiting for me. He played well.
Sometimes I get frustrated and give up on these guys, but tonight I decided to remain persistent. For some odd reason there was no outside interference, and what ensued was an epic fight. I think it lasted maybe 2 or 3 minuets.. in PvP that feels like forever. When I couldn't reach him I was biding my team with shield blocks and D stance, I eventually learned to recognize where/when he was going to plant a trap, and although he could keep away from me mostly, I got in enough hits, and held on long enough, so that I eventually got the kill. I was left with about 5% hp.
I began to bandage, and before I could finish was jumped by a rogue a few levels beneath me. Orcish stun resist for the win! I managed to take down the rogue, now at the tiniest sliver of life and with no bandages incoming, and crawled back to the flag I was orignally defending. What a rush. =)
Here we are looking at situational and contrasting elements. I dig what you're saying, you know?
EDIT- P.S. this is probably one of the most important threads/discussions I have ever been involved with and I just might link to general...[ post edited by Tseric ]
Observational bias is part of science, life, etc.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=737237&p=#post737783 |
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