Poster: Aedak at 11/26/2005 10:27:33 AM PST
Subject: Compilation of Warrior Issues (Constructive?) |
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Now that we seem to have an active CM on the boards I figured it was about time to voice some of our concerns constructively instead of the opposite.
Before I start, I'd like to point out that I understand Blizzard is trying to fairly balance out each class; and that there are constant "buffs" and "nerfs" to each class that are obviously taken under great consideration before going to the PTR and then eventually to the live realms.
I also feel that a lot of warriors are overreacting to certain changes, namely the enrage "nerf" - ironically most of these complaints come from people who haven't actually logged onto the PTR yet.
As far as the issues are concerned, this thread will serve to cover all the important bugs, talent problems, and balancing of the warrior class; including the Arms, Fury, and Protection trees.
I don't have any charts, graphs, or crazy math... just me and my own logic and experience. =\
Feel free to post your own comments, ideas and suggestions (as long as they aren't too off the wall). Please try to keep it constructive as well.
Now for the current issues and potential solutions, in no particular order (these may or may not have been resolved in 1.9).
Issues and Concerns:
[1] Charge and Intercept - While slowed (ie: via frost spells, crippling poison, hamstring, wing clip, etc.), using either of these abilities results in a sort of lagged approach effect. The outcome: You overshoot or undershoot, not reaching the target or going way past it. The stun (whether by charge [1s] or intercept [3s]) is effectively gone by the time the warrior can start moving on his own again, which is normally many seconds after he should have reached the target.
- Solution: Fix this desync of events, or allow charge/intercept to dispel these effects so we can use our skills as intended.
[2] Buff/Debuff Icon Tooltips - These have had the incorrect display since the game's release, 1 year ago. Abilities with talent improvements (such as battle shout, demoralizing shout, rend, etc.) do not correctly appear in the buff/debuff slot accurately; except when checking the character window (battle/demo shout) or the combat log (rend).
- Solution: Fix the tooltips so they accurately display changes due to talents.
[3] Intimidating Shout - The effect is considered a fear effect (even though it stuns it's target it can be removed through anti-fear effects, not anti-stun trinkets and abilities), yet targets with the Blessing of Protection buff are immune to it.
- Solution: Allow Intimidating shout to fear and keep the main target stunned/feared in place instead of allowing immunity to a fear effect (the BoP tooltip clearly states that the target is only immune to physical attacks).
[4] Improved Thunderclap - This talent has been neglected for so long (the change to the rage reduction per talent point does not please us =\). Thunderclap reduces attack speed by 10% and does a significantly low amount of damage (103 at the max rank 6, with up to 4 targets). The current talent is so insignificant not because warriors do not use thunderclap, but we do not use it often enough due to it's lack of utility.
- Solution #1: Change the talent so that it increases the damage or reduction and number of targets that thunderclap can hit. (ie: increases damage by 10-20% or decrease attack speed by an additional 3%/6%/10% per rank, as well as the number of targets it can hit by 1 per rank). This will make it a more viable talent, instead of being virtually useless as it is in its current condition.
- Solution #2: Change the talent so thunderclap also reduces movement speed by X% per point. Let it stack with other slowing effects such as hamstring, piercing howl, etc.
[5] Improved Slam - Another neglected talent. Slam is great under the right conditions (very underrated in my opinion given its utility). But people don't want to use it, why? Because slam is broken.
Fury warriors want abilities to dump rage into. Slam is great for that because with a 1 second cast, it allows for enormous potential burst damage.
The main issues with slam are not because it can be interrupted, it is due to the fact that it effectively stops your normal swing from occuring. That is, you no longer have any white damage (auto swing) until you stop using slam (assuming you use it more than one time in succession). Not only does it stop your normal swing from occuring (something I thought was supposedly fixed months ago in a patch), but it resets your swing timer. Meaning, if you have a 3.8 speed weapon, after that last slam you are not acting for another 3.8 seconds. Slam does however proc flurry, which is a very good thing. Another issue is the fact that Sword specialization, hand of justice, and windfury cannot proc off a slam. It shows up in the combat log (and SCT if you use the addon) as the event occuring and you gaining an extra attack, but you never actually gain the extra attack nor does the extra hit show up in the combat log.
- Solution: Change slam so that it does not affect the normal swing at all (ie: your normal swing continues to occur normally even while casting slam). At the very least, allow slam to not interrupt the normal swing. For example, if I am using a 3.8 speed weapon; and I start casting slam 2 seconds after the last swing occured (assuming flurry is not proc'd), my next swing after I finish casting slam should occur 1.8 seconds afterwards.
Fix the lack of event occurance that prevents the gaining of an extra attack through Windfury, Hand of Justice, and Sword Specialization.
(Note: Slam procs Sword Specialization in 1.9 properly. Whether or not it works proprerly with HoJ or Windfury I do not know, and will have to test it)
Change the talent tree so Slam does not require a full 5 points to max out. 2 or 3 is plenty, and would allow for a much better talent assortment (freeing up points for imp berserker rage, imp intercept, or imp execute).
[6] Dual Wield Specialization and Dual Wield Fury Builds - I personally have no problem with this talent. I think it's right on, and its utility is apparent while dual wielding. The problem lies in the fact that we miss way too much.
Rogues have talent called Precision that allows them to increase their chance to hit with melee weapons by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5%. Dual wielding warriors face the same issues and problems, and must accumulate massive amounts of +hit gear to negate this hit penalty without any talent.
Much of these gears (such as Lionheart Helm, Band of Accuria, Drake Fang Talisman, Master Dragonslaying Ring, Chromatic Boots, Onyxia Tooth Pendant, etc.) are epic and require raids to acquire. There are a few alternatives in 1.9 that I noticed while on the PTR, such as a quest reward blue ring with +1% crit/hit. But as far as epic gear goes, choices have been somewhat limited up until now (and some warriors have even been forced to look to mail/leather equivalents if they want to continue to increase their +hit). There are of course alternatives (and I'm not complaining because I actually have access to many of these) such as the blue darksoul set, but this example is laughable. Why? Because of itemization.
The Darksoul Set: http://thottbot.com/?set=444
Each item is plate and has at least +1% to hit, great! Now, what other stats do a fury warrior look for in an item before they decide to go after it? Agility (crit/dodge), strength (Attack power [Bloodthirst]), AND stamina. These items all have one thing in common, it is that they lack of any agi/str whatsoever. The set bonus adds +20 defense (and only if you are a blacksmith!), which is even more laughable. DW Fury warriors (I'm assuming those are the people this set was created for due to the +hit on them) don't want an item that has no AP/Crit on them. The whole point of accumulating +hit gear is so we can do more damage. The +sta and +defense on the set simply don't make sense to most of us. (Maybe I'm missing something? Maybe this set was designed to be a tanking set as an alternative to Enchanted Thorium, I don't know...)
- Solution to the DW issue: Give us a talent that increases +hit by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5%, and have it require 5/5 Dual Wield Specialization as a pre-req, that way 2h Arms/Fury warriors will not have access to this talent; thus eliminating the neglect of +hit gear altogether (since 2 handed weapons have a 5% miss penalty).
- Solution to the itemization issue: Modify the set or implement a new one (possibly craftable). One that actually has stats that these builds are looking for when they seek out armor. ie: items that have a mix of Str/AP, Agi/Crit, and /or Sta, as well as having +hit. I noticed a lot of the new epic items coming out of AQ have an abundance of +hit on them. That's great (not sarcasm), exactly what we're looking for in epic items. I'm personally hoping there will also be an epic bracer with similar stats.
[7] Enrage - This talent has been in the game for a long time. It's huge for both Arms/Fury and Fury/Arms warriors, in both PvP and PvE. The problem is obviously the fact that it increases damage by such a signficant amount, stacks with other effects such as the berserker buffs, impale, and deathwish (for those Fury/Arms). I understand the need for the "nerf", however I am not sure that the talent itself needs to be toned down so much for both trees. Crizack made a compelling argument on this topic here:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=626598&p=1 (Fixed)
I think the devs may have made a mistake by toning down enrage, because they hurt two trees in the process. One tree, which was already having difficulties keeping up with a superior Arms build due to the sharing of Enrage. Apparently there is no fix for the itemization issue, so our talents are being nerfed instead.
- Solution #1: Keep Enrage at 25%, but increase Bloodthirst's damage from AP by another 5-15% (up to 50-60% instead of 45%). This will allow fury to be a more viable spec for PvP as well as PvE, and still tone down the Arms/Fury warrior damage (which I assume is the reason for this nerf in the first place).
- Solution #2: Move Enrage further down the fury tree, and keep it at 40% increased damage with 5/5 talents. This will keep enrage out of reach of Mortal strike warriors but will not be such a blow to fury warriors (+5% Bloodthirst damage is hardly compensation). I personally prefer solution #1, because it does not totally destroy the Arms tree, and gives fury warriors a way to compete with burst damage in PvP.
[8] Improved Shield Block - This has been an issue for warriors since release. No matter how you try to argue it, warriors simply don't put 3/3 points into this talent. It's useless beyond 1/3 because it already takes advantage of the extra block, and lasts long enough already that warriors with enough common sense realize this and do not finish it off by putting 2 more talent points into it.
- Solution: Make this a 1/1 talent, or give us a reason to put 2 more points into it. ie: Increase the duration of shield block by 1 seconds per point, additional mitigation of some kind. Be creative you know? :P
[9] Itemization - I've seen a lot of different arguments from warriors regarding current itemization. People would like answers.
ie: What's up with Darksoul?
- Solution: Answer our Questions.
[10] Wrath Set Bonus - Honestly I don't know why these were not changed in 1.9. Wrath is obviously a tanking set, all of the stats and attributes on each piece of the set (excluding the bracers which should also have +defense) have str/sta/def/block/parry/dodge/resist or some similar combination. I don't understand why the first set bonus is so non-tank oriented.
For example: The 3 set bonus for Wrath is +30 Attack Power bonus to Battleshout. Well, I could have gotten Improved battleshout with talents to increase this. Most tanking warriors (the ones who are obtaining wrath anyway) don't want or need an extra 30 attack power, it's essentially worthless to them. 30 Attack power is something you would think would be on a PvP set (which actually has +15 sta, -5 intercept cooldown, and +1 parry - Imagine that...).
The second bonus has a 20% chance after using an offensive ability requiring rage that your next offensive ability requires 5 less rage to use. This is actually pretty useful if you think about it. With skills like shield bash, heroic strike, revenge, etc., a warrior probably takes advantage of this bonus more often than he thinks.
The third bonus gives a 4% chance to parry the next attack after a block. For people who don't understand, everytime you block (depending on how high your block rate is or if you use shield block often), you will have a 4% chance to gain a proc that increases your parry to 100% on the next attack. I think this talent is great, but chance of this actually occuring even if the warrior has a 20-30% blockrate is still awfully low.
- Solution: Re-work the 3-piece bonus so it is more tank-oriented. With the 8-piece bonus, raise the chance to gain the proc off a block by 4-6% so it is actually worth it (This is an 8 piece set bonus for crying out loud). Or change it to something completely different so it is actually worth completing the set for.
[11] Bloodthirst - As briefly mentioned before, this talent is still severely lacking. The amount of Attack power required to even come close to on par with a mediocre weapon's mortal strike attack is obscene (We're talking 2400+ AP to compete in damage). 40% was pretty weak, 45% in Patch 1.9 is better. But honestly, it's still not enough. I've tested the new BT, enrage, etc. on the test and haven't noticed much change at all. While I haven't noticed a significant drop in my overall DPS (1.9 enrage) in the 20-man AQ, BT still really needs a buff of some sort.
The other problem is obviously the healing portion of bloodthirst. People are unhappy with the amount gained. 2h fury warriors may or may not even be able to use up those 5 attacks before the 8 seconds are up. Dual wield warriors can almost always use up all of the "charges" and take full advantage of this talent because it is independent of weapon damage or speed. The healing aspect of bloodthirst may need some love.
- Solution #1: Increase the damage on Bloodthirst from Attack Power to 50-60%, instead of 45%. Not only are these nice round numbers, but they will bring the BT talent more in line with MS warriors. Think about increasing the restored healing on bloodthirst, or change it completely to something else such as other people have suggested. ie: PvP versatility by adding an anti-snare effect, or possibly adding a piercing effect that lowers armor. Or, have Bloodthirst ignore armor completely.
- Solution #2: Change Bloodthirst so it acts similar to Mortal strike, in that it deals weapon damage +? and scales with weapons rather than AP. Both main and off-hands would be included in the equation, and it would work with Two-handed weapons as well. The faults of this idea is there is no way to tell how it would scale with all weapons, and would actually hurt those who use a shield with a one-handed weapon.
- Solution #3: Modify Bloodthirst so that it increases the chance to crit on the next attack (or a number of successive attacks, a proc similar to felstriker).
[ post edited by Aedak ]
http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?562542
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=625806&p=#post625806 | | | Poster: Tseric at 12/3/2005 8:31:46 PM PST
Subject: Re: Compilation of Warrior Issues (Constructi |
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My, what a big post you have :P
Good stuff, Aedak. I will try to cover all of the topics you address, although that may happen over the span of a couple days. I'm printing some, so as to read in natural light rather than from a monitor.
And, I realize you guys want more attention, but try not to stir up trouble in other class forums looking for it ;)
Q u o t e:
[1] Charge and Intercept - While slowed (ie: via frost spells, crippling poison, hamstring, wing clip, etc.), using either of these abilities results in a sort of lagged approach effect. The outcome: You overshoot or undershoot, not reaching the target or going way past it. The stun (whether by charge [1s] or intercept [3s]) is effectively gone by the time the warrior can start moving on his own again, which is normally many seconds after he should have reached the target.
- Solution: Fix this desync of events, or allow charge/intercept to dispel these effects so we can use our skills as intended.
I'd like to say there is an easy fix for this, but it is not a "bug" in the conventional sense. This is basically related to hardware and server-client communication. In light of that, the devs aren't going to make design changes to an ability based around technical issues. Besides, if charge/intercept dispelled slowing effects, players would scream bloody murder(no pun intended).
Q u o t e:
[2] Buff/Debuff Icon Tooltips - These have had the incorrect display since the game's release, 1 year ago. Abilities with talent improvements (such as battle shout, demoralizing shout, rend, etc.) do not correctly appear in the buff/debuff slot accurately; except when checking the character window (battle/demo shout) or the combat log (rend).
- Solution: Fix the tooltips so they accurately display changes due to talents.
This can happen with various talented tooltips, due to the "temporary" upgrade of the ability. Unfortunately, tooltip issues rank low on the priority list of actual fixes, so I can't really provide a date for a fix.
Q u o t e:
[3] Intimidating Shout - The effect is considered a fear effect (even though it stuns it's target it can be removed through anti-fear effects, not anti-stun trinkets and abilities), yet targets with the Blessing of Protection buff are immune to it.
- Solution: Allow Intimidating shout to fear and keep the main target stunned/feared in place instead of allowing immunity to a fear effect (the BoP tooltip clearly states that the target is only immune to physical attacks).
This could be a regressive effect. I'll bring it up with QA. It was previously designed to not be affected by physical immunity(BoP).
Q u o t e:
[4] Improved Thunderclap - This talent has been neglected for so long (the change to the rage reduction per talent point does not please us =\). Thunderclap reduces attack speed by 10% and does a significantly low amount of damage (103 at the max rank 6, with up to 4 targets). The current talent is so insignificant not because warriors do not use thunderclap, but we do not use it often enough due to it's lack of utility.
- Solution #1: Change the talent so that it increases the damage or reduction and number of targets that thunderclap can hit. (ie: increases damage by 10-20% or decrease attack speed by an additional 3%/6%/10% per rank, as well as the number of targets it can hit by 1 per rank). This will make it a more viable talent, instead of being virtually useless as it is in its current condition.
- Solution #2: Change the talent so thunderclap also reduces movement speed by X% per point. Let it stack with other slowing effects such as hamstring, piercing howl, etc.
This is not designed to be a damage spell, but a minor debuffer with aggro-drawing(AoE) potential. Obviously this is better suited to a PvE environment. A speed debuff is already offered in other abilities and having another one avialable for PvP usage isn't really deemed necessary. I'm open to more discussion about it, but if warriors are using it to a small degree, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just has a more particular purpose. You can spam it fairly easy as is, so stacking abilities on it can get unbalanced quickly. This is another reason it's not a damage ability primarily.
Q u o t e:
[5] Improved Slam - Another neglected talent. Slam is great under the right conditions (very underrated in my opinion given its utility). But people don't want to use it, why? Because slam is broken.
Fury warriors want abilities to dump rage into. Slam is great for that because with a 1 second cast, it allows for enormous potential burst damage.
The main issues with slam are not because it can be interrupted, it is due to the fact that it effectively stops your normal swing from occuring. That is, you no longer have any white damage (auto swing) until you stop using slam (assuming you use it more than one time in succession). Not only does it stop your normal swing from occuring (something I thought was supposedly fixed months ago in a patch), but it resets your swing timer. Meaning, if you have a 3.8 speed weapon, after that last slam you are not acting for another 3.8 seconds. Slam does however proc flurry, which is a very good thing. Another issue is the fact that Sword specialization, hand of justice, and windfury cannot proc off a slam. It shows up in the combat log (and SCT if you use the addon) as the event occuring and you gaining an extra attack, but you never actually gain the extra attack nor does the extra hit show up in the combat log.
- Solution: Change slam so that it does not affect the normal swing at all (ie: your normal swing continues to occur normally even while casting slam). At the very least, allow slam to not interrupt the normal swing. For example, if I am using a 3.8 speed weapon; and I start casting slam 2 seconds after the last swing occured (assuming flurry is not proc'd), my next swing after I finish casting slam should occur 1.8 seconds afterwards.
Fix the lack of event occurance that prevents the gaining of an extra attack through Windfury, Hand of Justice, and Sword Specialization.
(Note: Slam procs Sword Specialization in 1.9 properly. Whether or not it works proprerly with HoJ or Windfury I do not know, and will have to test it)
Change the talent tree so Slam does not require a full 5 points to max out. 2 or 3 is plenty, and would allow for a much better talent assortment (freeing up points for imp berserker rage, imp intercept, or imp execute).
I can look into the mechanics of this ability more in regards to the normal swing delay and see if this is intended. At the moment, nothing is jumping out from the database as broken, so it may be a design decision.
The proc'ing effects off slam should in fact be corrected for 1.9. This includes the other effects you mentioned.
Q u o t e:
[6] Dual Wield Specialization and Dual Wield Fury Builds - I personally have no problem with this talent. I think it's right on, and its utility is apparent while dual wielding. The problem lies in the fact that we miss way too much.
Rogues have talent called Precision that allows them to increase their chance to hit with melee weapons by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5%. Dual wielding warriors face the same issues and problems, and must accumulate massive amounts of +hit gear to negate this hit penalty without any talent.
Much of these gears (such as Lionheart Helm, Band of Accuria, Drake Fang Talisman, Master Dragonslaying Ring, Chromatic Boots, Onyxia Tooth Pendant, etc.) are epic and require raids to acquire. There are a few alternatives in 1.9 that I noticed while on the PTR, such as a quest reward blue ring with +1% crit/hit. But as far as epic gear goes, choices have been somewhat limited up until now (and some warriors have even been forced to look to mail/leather equivalents if they want to continue to increase their +hit). There are of course alternatives (and I'm not complaining because I actually have access to many of these) such as the blue darksoul set, but this example is laughable. Why? Because of itemization.
The Darksoul Set: http://thottbot.com/?set=444
Each item is plate and has at least +1% to hit, great! Now, what other stats do a fury warrior look for in an item before they decide to go after it? Agility (crit/dodge), strength (Attack power [Bloodthirst]), AND stamina. These items all have one thing in common, it is that they lack of any agi/str whatsoever. The set bonus adds +20 defense (and only if you are a blacksmith!), which is even more laughable. DW Fury warriors (I'm assuming those are the people this set was created for due to the +hit on them) don't want an item that has no AP/Crit on them. The whole point of accumulating +hit gear is so we can do more damage. The +sta and +defense on the set simply don't make sense to most of us. (Maybe I'm missing something? Maybe this set was designed to be a tanking set as an alternative to Enchanted Thorium, I don't know...)
- Solution to the DW issue: Give us a talent that increases +hit by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5%, and have it require 5/5 Dual Wield Specialization as a pre-req, that way 2h Arms/Fury warriors will not have access to this talent; thus eliminating the neglect of +hit gear altogether (since 2 handed weapons have a 5% miss penalty).
- Solution to the itemization issue: Modify the set or implement a new one (possibly craftable). One that actually has stats that these builds are looking for when they seek out armor. ie: items that have a mix of Str/AP, Agi/Crit, and /or Sta, as well as having +hit. I noticed a lot of the new epic items coming out of AQ have an abundance of +hit on them. That's great (not sarcasm), exactly what we're looking for in epic items. I'm personally hoping there will also be an epic bracer with similar stats.
While dual wield is available to warriors, they aren't as necessarily proficient as rogues,who really depend on it more as a core ability. Therefore, you are going to find trade-offs on gear between basic stats(str/agi) and secondary stats(+hit), even at the epic level. Granted, epic gear will have more of a combination of various stats than lower gear, but there will still be trade-offs due to item budgeting. In your example of darksoul, we see the +hit to increase damage and the STA to take damage. This is aside from damage mitigation from the actual armor(plate). Maybe I'm reading you wrong but if you stacked AGI on that you add more damage(effectively) and STR on top of that you add even more damage. To say that any one piece or set is going to be a one stop shop for all your stat needs prevents any kind of trade-off. If fury warriors are focused on Crit/AP, then they will have to acquire said stats at the sacrifice of others.
Q u o t e:
[7] Enrage - This talent has been in the game for a long time. It's huge for both Arms/Fury and Fury/Arms warriors, in both PvP and PvE. The problem is obviously the fact that it increases damage by such a signficant amount, stacks with other effects such as the berserker buffs, impale, and deathwish (for those Fury/Arms). I understand the need for the "nerf", however I am not sure that the talent itself needs to be toned down so much for both trees. Crizack made a compelling argument on this topic here:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=626598&p=1 (Fixed)
I think the devs may have made a mistake by toning down enrage, because they hurt two trees in the process. One tree, which was already having difficulties keeping up with a superior Arms build due to the sharing of Enrage. Apparently there is no fix for the itemization issue, so our talents are being nerfed instead.
- Solution #1: Keep Enrage at 25%, but increase Bloodthirst's damage from AP by another 5-15% (up to 50-60% instead of 45%). This will allow fury to be a more viable spec for PvP as well as PvE, and still tone down the Arms/Fury warrior damage (which I assume is the reason for this nerf in the first place).
- Solution #2: Move Enrage further down the fury tree, and keep it at 40% increased damage with 5/5 talents. This will keep enrage out of reach of Mortal strike warriors but will not be such a blow to fury warriors (+5% Bloodthirst damage is hardly compensation). I personally prefer solution #1, because it does not totally destroy the Arms tree, and gives fury warriors a way to compete with burst damage in PvP.
I can definitely bring this up again with the devs, as this has freaked out some folks. The intent of the change was to tone down excessive damage they were seeing in PvP, but how this affects the trees and other aspects is something I would like to get more of an explanation on. I think they like it where it is in the tree, as it is accessible by multiple builds. So, that might not change.
I want to follow up with the rest as soon as I can.
Stay tuned...
WTT [Opinion] PST
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=625806&p=#post644151 | Poster: Tseric at 12/3/2005 9:30:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: Compilation of Warrior Issues (Constructi |
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Q u o t e:
I know, but my point is that they knew that when they revamped the talents and let it go because, I assume, they saw it as a fit with their vision of the WoW warrior.
I'd like to know what happened between then and now that changed their minds.
Basically, it was observation of player behavior. Enrage was being used often and continuously. It became a matter of player's being enraged as much as possible whenever possible. This caused overall damage to increase for many across the board. Not exactly like a "cookie-cutter" mentality, but an over-reliance on a powerful ability.
WTT [Opinion] PST
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=625806&p=#post644220 | Poster: Tseric at 12/3/2005 8:31:46 PM PST
Subject: Re: Compilation of Warrior Issues (Constructi *edited post* |
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My, what a big post you have :P
Good stuff, Aedak. I will try to cover all of the topics you address, although that may happen over the span of a couple days. I'm printing some, so as to read in natural light rather than from a monitor.
And, I realize you guys want more attention, but try not to stir up trouble in other class forums looking for it ;)
Q u o t e:
[1] Charge and Intercept - While slowed (ie: via frost spells, crippling poison, hamstring, wing clip, etc.), using either of these abilities results in a sort of lagged approach effect. The outcome: You overshoot or undershoot, not reaching the target or going way past it. The stun (whether by charge [1s] or intercept [3s]) is effectively gone by the time the warrior can start moving on his own again, which is normally many seconds after he should have reached the target.
- Solution: Fix this desync of events, or allow charge/intercept to dispel these effects so we can use our skills as intended.
I'd like to say there is an easy fix for this, but it is not a "bug" in the conventional sense. This is basically related to hardware and server-client communication. In light of that, the devs aren't going to make design changes to an ability based around technical issues. Besides, if charge/intercept dispelled slowing effects, players would scream bloody murder(no pun intended).
Q u o t e:
[2] Buff/Debuff Icon Tooltips - These have had the incorrect display since the game's release, 1 year ago. Abilities with talent improvements (such as battle shout, demoralizing shout, rend, etc.) do not correctly appear in the buff/debuff slot accurately; except when checking the character window (battle/demo shout) or the combat log (rend).
- Solution: Fix the tooltips so they accurately display changes due to talents.
This can happen with various talented tooltips, due to the "temporary" upgrade of the ability. Unfortunately, tooltip issues rank low on the priority list of actual fixes, so I can't really provide a date for a fix.
Q u o t e:
[3] Intimidating Shout - The effect is considered a fear effect (even though it stuns it's target it can be removed through anti-fear effects, not anti-stun trinkets and abilities), yet targets with the Blessing of Protection buff are immune to it.
- Solution: Allow Intimidating shout to fear and keep the main target stunned/feared in place instead of allowing immunity to a fear effect (the BoP tooltip clearly states that the target is only immune to physical attacks).
This could be a regressive effect. I'll bring it up with QA. It was previously designed to not be affected by physical immunity(BoP).
Q u o t e:
[4] Improved Thunderclap - This talent has been neglected for so long (the change to the rage reduction per talent point does not please us =\). Thunderclap reduces attack speed by 10% and does a significantly low amount of damage (103 at the max rank 6, with up to 4 targets). The current talent is so insignificant not because warriors do not use thunderclap, but we do not use it often enough due to it's lack of utility.
- Solution #1: Change the talent so that it increases the damage or reduction and number of targets that thunderclap can hit. (ie: increases damage by 10-20% or decrease attack speed by an additional 3%/6%/10% per rank, as well as the number of targets it can hit by 1 per rank). This will make it a more viable talent, instead of being virtually useless as it is in its current condition.
- Solution #2: Change the talent so thunderclap also reduces movement speed by X% per point. Let it stack with other slowing effects such as hamstring, piercing howl, etc.
This is not designed to be a damage spell, but a minor debuffer with aggro-drawing(AoE) potential. Obviously this is better suited to a PvE environment. A speed debuff is already offered in other abilities and having another one avialable for PvP usage isn't really deemed necessary. I'm open to more discussion about it, but if warriors are using it to a small degree, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just has a more particular purpose. You can spam it fairly easy as is, so stacking abilities on it can get unbalanced quickly. This is another reason it's not a damage ability primarily.
Q u o t e:
[5] Improved Slam - Another neglected talent. Slam is great under the right conditions (very underrated in my opinion given its utility). But people don't want to use it, why? Because slam is broken.
Fury warriors want abilities to dump rage into. Slam is great for that because with a 1 second cast, it allows for enormous potential burst damage.
The main issues with slam are not because it can be interrupted, it is due to the fact that it effectively stops your normal swing from occuring. That is, you no longer have any white damage (auto swing) until you stop using slam (assuming you use it more than one time in succession). Not only does it stop your normal swing from occuring (something I thought was supposedly fixed months ago in a patch), but it resets your swing timer. Meaning, if you have a 3.8 speed weapon, after that last slam you are not acting for another 3.8 seconds. Slam does however proc flurry, which is a very good thing. Another issue is the fact that Sword specialization, hand of justice, and windfury cannot proc off a slam. It shows up in the combat log (and SCT if you use the addon) as the event occuring and you gaining an extra attack, but you never actually gain the extra attack nor does the extra hit show up in the combat log.
- Solution: Change slam so that it does not affect the normal swing at all (ie: your normal swing continues to occur normally even while casting slam). At the very least, allow slam to not interrupt the normal swing. For example, if I am using a 3.8 speed weapon; and I start casting slam 2 seconds after the last swing occured (assuming flurry is not proc'd), my next swing after I finish casting slam should occur 1.8 seconds afterwards.
Fix the lack of event occurance that prevents the gaining of an extra attack through Windfury, Hand of Justice, and Sword Specialization.
(Note: Slam procs Sword Specialization in 1.9 properly. Whether or not it works proprerly with HoJ or Windfury I do not know, and will have to test it)
Change the talent tree so Slam does not require a full 5 points to max out. 2 or 3 is plenty, and would allow for a much better talent assortment (freeing up points for imp berserker rage, imp intercept, or imp execute).
I can look into the mechanics of this ability more in regards to the normal swing delay and see if this is intended. At the moment, nothing is jumping out from the database as broken, so it may be a design decision.
The proc'ing effects off slam should in fact be corrected for 1.9. This includes the other effects you mentioned.
Q u o t e:
[6] Dual Wield Specialization and Dual Wield Fury Builds - I personally have no problem with this talent. I think it's right on, and its utility is apparent while dual wielding. The problem lies in the fact that we miss way too much.
Rogues have talent called Precision that allows them to increase their chance to hit with melee weapons by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5%. Dual wielding warriors face the same issues and problems, and must accumulate massive amounts of +hit gear to negate this hit penalty without any talent.
Much of these gears (such as Lionheart Helm, Band of Accuria, Drake Fang Talisman, Master Dragonslaying Ring, Chromatic Boots, Onyxia Tooth Pendant, etc.) are epic and require raids to acquire. There are a few alternatives in 1.9 that I noticed while on the PTR, such as a quest reward blue ring with +1% crit/hit. But as far as epic gear goes, choices have been somewhat limited up until now (and some warriors have even been forced to look to mail/leather equivalents if they want to continue to increase their +hit). There are of course alternatives (and I'm not complaining because I actually have access to many of these) such as the blue darksoul set, but this example is laughable. Why? Because of itemization.
The Darksoul Set: http://thottbot.com/?set=444
Each item is plate and has at least +1% to hit, great! Now, what other stats do a fury warrior look for in an item before they decide to go after it? Agility (crit/dodge), strength (Attack power [Bloodthirst]), AND stamina. These items all have one thing in common, it is that they lack of any agi/str whatsoever. The set bonus adds +20 defense (and only if you are a blacksmith!), which is even more laughable. DW Fury warriors (I'm assuming those are the people this set was created for due to the +hit on them) don't want an item that has no AP/Crit on them. The whole point of accumulating +hit gear is so we can do more damage. The +sta and +defense on the set simply don't make sense to most of us. (Maybe I'm missing something? Maybe this set was designed to be a tanking set as an alternative to Enchanted Thorium, I don't know...)
- Solution to the DW issue: Give us a talent that increases +hit by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5%, and have it require 5/5 Dual Wield Specialization as a pre-req, that way 2h Arms/Fury warriors will not have access to this talent; thus eliminating the neglect of +hit gear altogether (since 2 handed weapons have a 5% miss penalty).
- Solution to the itemization issue: Modify the set or implement a new one (possibly craftable). One that actually has stats that these builds are looking for when they seek out armor. ie: items that have a mix of Str/AP, Agi/Crit, and /or Sta, as well as having +hit. I noticed a lot of the new epic items coming out of AQ have an abundance of +hit on them. That's great (not sarcasm), exactly what we're looking for in epic items. I'm personally hoping there will also be an epic bracer with similar stats.
While dual wield is available to warriors, they aren't as necessarily proficient as rogues,who really depend on it more as a core ability. Therefore, you are going to find trade-offs on gear between basic stats(str/agi) and secondary stats(+hit), even at the epic level. Granted, epic gear will have more of a combination of various stats than lower gear, but there will still be trade-offs due to item budgeting. In your example of darksoul, we see the +hit to increase damage and the STA to take damage. This is aside from damage mitigation from the actual armor(plate). Maybe I'm reading you wrong but if you stacked AGI on that you add more damage(effectively) and STR on top of that you add even more damage. To say that any one piece or set is going to be a one stop shop for all your stat needs prevents any kind of trade-off. If fury warriors are focused on Crit/AP, then they will have to acquire said stats at the sacrifice of others.
Q u o t e:
[7] Enrage - This talent has been in the game for a long time. It's huge for both Arms/Fury and Fury/Arms warriors, in both PvP and PvE. The problem is obviously the fact that it increases damage by such a signficant amount, stacks with other effects such as the berserker buffs, impale, and deathwish (for those Fury/Arms). I understand the need for the "nerf", however I am not sure that the talent itself needs to be toned down so much for both trees. Crizack made a compelling argument on this topic here:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=626598&p=1 (Fixed)
I think the devs may have made a mistake by toning down enrage, because they hurt two trees in the process. One tree, which was already having difficulties keeping up with a superior Arms build due to the sharing of Enrage. Apparently there is no fix for the itemization issue, so our talents are being nerfed instead.
- Solution #1: Keep Enrage at 25%, but increase Bloodthirst's damage from AP by another 5-15% (up to 50-60% instead of 45%). This will allow fury to be a more viable spec for PvP as well as PvE, and still tone down the Arms/Fury warrior damage (which I assume is the reason for this nerf in the first place).
- Solution #2: Move Enrage further down the fury tree, and keep it at 40% increased damage with 5/5 talents. This will keep enrage out of reach of Mortal strike warriors but will not be such a blow to fury warriors (+5% Bloodthirst damage is hardly compensation). I personally prefer solution #1, because it does not totally destroy the Arms tree, and gives fury warriors a way to compete with burst damage in PvP.
I can definitely bring this up again with the devs, as this has freaked out some folks. The intent of the change was to tone down excessive damage they were seeing in PvP, but how this affects the trees and other aspects is something I would like to get more of an explanation on. I think they like it where it is in the tree, as it is accessible by multiple builds. So, that might not change.
I want to follow up with the rest as soon as I can.
Stay tuned...
WTT [Opinion] PST
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=625806&p=#post644151 | Poster: Tseric at 12/3/2005 9:30:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: Compilation of Warrior Issues (Constructi *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
I know, but my point is that they knew that when they revamped the talents and let it go because, I assume, they saw it as a fit with their vision of the WoW warrior.
I'd like to know what happened between then and now that changed their minds.
Basically, it was observation of player behavior. Enrage was being used often and continuously. It became a matter of player's being enraged as much as possible whenever possible. This caused overall damage to increase for many across the board. Not exactly like a "cookie-cutter" mentality, but an over-reliance on a powerful ability.
WTT [Opinion] PST
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=625806&p=#post644220 | Poster: Tseric at 12/3/2005 9:30:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: Compilation of Warrior Issues (Constructi *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
I know, but my point is that they knew that when they revamped the talents and let it go because, I assume, they saw it as a fit with their vision of the WoW warrior.
I'd like to know what happened between then and now that changed their minds.
Basically, it was observation of player behavior. Enrage was being used often and continuously. It became a matter of player's being enraged as much as possible whenever possible. This caused overall damage to increase for many across the board. Not exactly like a "cookie-cutter" mentality, but an over-reliance on a powerful ability.
WTT [Opinion] PST
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=625806&p=#post644220 |
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