Poster: Fink at 11/23/2005 10:28:41 PM PST
Subject: Warlock Rhetoric (serious discussion) |
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The point of this thread is to bring forth and consilidate the numerous points of dissatisfaction with the warlock class in the PvE endgame, and attempt to identify the cause of them, and hopefully (with the help of blizzard CMs input) find a way to work past them.
It seems that the majority of dissatisfaction with the warlock class comes from the confusion of class identity between the players and the developers.
To clarify:
Warlocks, as it stands now are a dps class. On raids our primary function is that of dealing damage. This is primary evidence for warlocks being intended as a dps class. (Logic being that the devs have succeeded mostly in implementing our intended design)
However, despite this evidence we see, we are presented with two pieces of contradictory evidence.
Q u o t e:
Warlocks have both powerful damage spells (primarily dealing over time) and debuff spells that work well in conjunction with each other and with the abilities of their groupmates. They have Curses for many occasions; in fact, they can easily be considered the best debuffers in the game.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warlock.html
This gives evidence to the fact that our role would be more suited as a debuffer. This often leads to confusion.
Further contradictory evidence to our role as a dps class is in the changes to curse of shadows in patch 1.9, as it was said by Kalgan (I regret I cannot find the thread, if someone else can I will edit the link in here) that the purpose of this was primarily to reduce warlock raid dps. This is further strong evidence to suggest that warlocks are not intended to be primarily a dps class.
So to address the issue of being a debuffing class, which seems to be the other option. Before I begin with this I would like to explain my methodology. All balance in this game is relative to other classes. It doesnt matter if one class does 100 dps, it only matters how much dps they do compared to other classes. If a class is meant to be the best at the role of dps/tanking/debuffing/healing then by that very wording, their abilities in this realm must compare favoritively to those of all other classes. The argument that we cant compare one class to another in balance is without merit.
So then, we must look at what debuffs there are to play at the end raiding game, what effects they have, and which classes have them.
I will quickly catagorize them; I list only debuffs applicable to the end-game raiding environment.
Armor Debuffs
Melee Damage Debuffs
Spell Damage Debuffs (mob offensive)
Spell Resistance Debuffs
First catagory, armor debuffs
Warlocks have http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=11717
640 armor debuff, with a negligible boost to the mobs Melee damage. Stacks with other armor debuffs.
Warriors have http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=11597
2250 armor debuff, stacks with recklessness.
Rogues have http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=11198
1700 armor, stacks with recklessness, but not sunder.
In this catagory, we see that warlocks have an effective debuff, but a secondary debuff.
Melee damage debuffs
(I will cease linking every applicable spell here, merely naming them and briefly describing. Anyone reading can do further research if neccesary)
Warlocks have Curse of Weakness, -31 damage per hit.
Druids have insect swarm (via talent points), -2% to hit.
Warriors have Thunderclap, which reduces attack speed by 10%.
Paladins in 1.9 will be getting a talent to attack a mobs str/agility, effectiveness unknown.
Again we see multiple abilities that stack, but once again the warlock ability is secondary.
Spell damage debuffs (mob offensive)
Warlocks have Curse of Tongues, which is unusable in the raid game.
Also applicable are the rare usage of mana drain.
Warlocks have mana drain, which is channelled, and can deal 30% of drained mana as damage and returns mana drained to the caster. 140 mana per second.
Priests have mana burn, which deals 50% of drained mana as damage. 260 mana per second.
Hunters have viper sting, which is a DoT drain. 138.5 mana per second.
It is hard to compare these differant abilities, as all of them have differant benefits. So I will only compare the aspect of speed of mana drained, as it is the applicable part to this discussion. As we can see, warlocks do not come out ahead in this either.
Spell resistance debuffs
With Curse of Shadows and Curse of Elements, warlocks have dominion over this realm of debuffing, it's effectiveness being changed (reduced for warlocks, increasde for mages) in the coming patch.
The final point being, we see a number of conflicting messages as to the warlock's role in the end game. If it is intended to be a debuffer, then we would need to excell in the areas of debuffing, which we currently do not. For warlocks, debuffing is not a class defining role in the end game.
My question for a representative of blizzard is; Is it possible for us to recieve a clear answer as to your vision of our class defining role in the PvE raiding game? I believe just this information could go a very long way towards finding the appropriate path to take with warlocks in the future.
http://wow.cereusdesign.com/
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warlock&t=699130&p=#post699130 | | | Poster: Tseric at 11/24/2005 5:02:47 PM PST
Subject: Re: Warlock Rhetoric (serious discussion) |
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Normally, I don't like making comparisons between other classes. It usually tends to focus on minor point-to-point comparison and lose the broader scope. However, I will say that this sounds strangely like what I hear on the mage boards. I will elaborate:
It seems to me, that as the game develops and may be coming to a closer state of balance between classes, certain lines may get blurred.
It has been my impression that many class abilities are duplicated to greater or lesser extent in other classes to allow for versatility in group formation and play. Simplest example being, if priests were the only healers, many groups would not work because they had no priest. Half-formed groups would hang around a main city waiting for that slot to be filled. By having cross-over abilities and hybrid classes, more group combinations become viable. This, in my eyes, generates more fun for groups of people.
What I have been seeing of late are some classes having a sort of identity crisis. They compare abilities to other classes and wonder where their strength lies. The mages are currently concerned with the fact that they are no longer the "masters of ranged damage", as some classes are able to out-damage them in certain situations. They lament the fact that they are not out-damaging other classes at all times.
When people are discussing roles, I usually see the following reasoning being applied:
-There must be one thing we do best, in all situations.
-The "best" usually means the most damage or simply the most powerful.
This usually results in the notion of "I should be able to outdamage another class any time I want". Not saying that is what is happening here, just something I see.
Fink, you have made individual comparisons of warlock debuffs with various other classes. However, this side-steps the fact that warlocks have access to all of these debuffs, where the compared classes may have only a few (or less). You seem to be saying that, because another class may have a debuff that is better in one case, it renders the warlock's debuff useless. What if those other classes aren't available at the time?
A similar comparison can be made with mages. They get out-damaged by a class in a certain situation and say, "but I'm supposed to be the best at this, what's the problem?". When what the focus is is diversity of damage, not single source damage. Mages utilize three spell schools for their damage. No other class can claim this the same as mages. This allows a mage choices when deciding how to deal damage or spec'ing.
The warlock can be considered a debuff class because it has the most versatility in that respect. There are many situations a warlock can respond to. It may not be the most powerful response, but there is something to respond with.
Now, how this works going in to end-game is certainly something that merits more discussion. It is something that has been on my mind a bit, as different players and classes have brought this up. I will do what I can to provide a clear response to what the role may be in end-game and how/if it differs from other aspects of play.
Starin' you down, creepy jackalope eye...
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