Poster: Matil at 9/24/2005 12:31:22 PM PDT
Subject: 1.8 AP Nerf - Alternative Solutions & Numbers |
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Thanks to the following threads that made me start thinking how to approach patch 1.8's change to the weapon speed bonus calculation.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-rogue&T=589136&P=1
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=591771&tmp=1
As it stands, the AP bonus of instant strikes is linearly proportional to the weapon speed. Thus slow, but weak weapons like the Barman shanker will receive a double bonus - that from the high end max damage, and also from the slow weapon speed. This is obviously a problem, because faster, but ultimately rarer weapons of superior or epic quality were being surpassed by the anomalies such as the barman shanker.
With the new patch, the devs have the right idea - that of weakening weapons such as the shanker. The fixed weaponspeed (1.7 daggers and 2.4 for 1 handers) will buff fast weapons slightly, and weaken slow weapons slightly. This slight shift in power, however, is not enough to make fast weapons viable mainhands - we will have slightly improved offhands, and slightly worse mainhands. This will still make the shanker a very good ambush weapon, just not as good as before.
Instead of using speed to scale AP, I propose we use a factor that accounts for the DPS of a weapon.
I argue that a weapon's rarity will be proportional to its dps tooltip value, whereas the weapon speed has no correlation to its rarity.
Rarity, of course, correlates positively with the amount of time and effort. Thus, the more rare, the more time you put in, and thus the higher the AP bonus should be.
The following is a comparison of a selection of weapons from the first thread mentioned above.
Formula for backstab crit : (1.8*(( ((Max+Min)/2))+((AP/14)*Bonus Factor)) )+210)*2.3
The 2.3 is double damage for a crit + 30% from lethality.
The 1.8 is the 180% weapon damage modifier from backstab + opportunity
210 is the flat damage add from the final rank of backstab
Bonus Factor is [Weaponspeed] for patch 1.7, [1.7 for daggs or 2.4 for other 1 handers] for patch 1.8, and [squareroot of dps / n] for my proposed solution.
In effect, the factor [squareroot of DPS / n] is the new effective weapon speed.
Assumptions:
800 AP.
N for daggers = 2.7, N for other 1 handers = 3.8
The calculations may seem a little bit more complicated than just by using weapon speed or a fixed factor, but the results are quite pleasing.
Notice that fist weapons are getting a big buff, and are now viable mainhands. Very fast weapons are getting the highest buffs. Slow weapons are not getting changed much, unless their DPS is unusually low compared to their SS/ambush, for example the Shanker would be getting nerfed a bit.
Daggers(using backstab)
Rank 14(95-143 2spd +28ap, 1% crit)
Min / Max : 95
Speed : 2
Avg Dps : 59.50
Avg Crit Backstab : 1,389.66
Avg Crit Backstab w/ 1.8 : 1,327.56
% change from 1.7 : -4.47%
Squareroot of DPS / n : 2.03
Avg Crit Backstab w/ dps scaling : 1,395.85
% change from 1.7 : 0.45%
Perditions(73-137 1.8spd)
Min / Max : 73
Speed : 1.8
Avg Dps : 58.33
Avg Crit Backstab : 1,290.30
Avg Crit Backstab w/ 1.8 : 1,269.60
% change from 1.7 : -1.60%
Squareroot of DPS / n : 2.01
Avg Crit Backstab w/ dps scaling : 1,333.75
% change from 1.7 : 3.37%
Dragonfang Blade(69-130 1.8spd 16agi[16ap .55crit])
Min / Max : 69
Speed : 1.8
Avg Dps : 55.28
Avg Crit Backstab : 1,267.53
Avg Crit Backstab w/ 1.8 : 1,246.83
% change from 1.7 : -1.63%
Squareroot of DPS / n : 1.96
Avg Crit Backstab w/ dps scaling : 1,299.94
% change from 1.7 : 2.56%
Corehound Tooth(57-107 1.6spd 20ap 1%crit)
Min / Max : 57
Speed : 1.6
Avg Dps : 51.25
Avg Crit Backstab : 1,153.68
Avg Crit Backstab w/ 1.8 : 1,174.38
% change from 1.7 : 1.79%
Squareroot of DPS / n : 1.88
Avg Crit Backstab w/ dps scaling : 1,212.45
% change from 1.7 : 5.09%
Gutgore Ripper(63-119 1.8spd)
Min / Max : 63
Speed : 1.8
Avg Dps : 50.56
Avg Crit Backstab : 1,232.34
Avg Crit Backstab w/ 1.8 : 1,211.64
% change from 1.7 : -1.68%
Squareroot of DPS / n : 1.87
Avg Crit Backstab w/ dps scaling : 1,247.06
% change from 1.7 : 1.19%
Fang of the Faceless(66-123 1.9spd 28ap 1%crit)
Min / Max : 66
Speed : 1.9
Avg Dps : 49.74
Avg Crit Backstab : 1,267.53
Avg Crit Backstab w/ 1.8 : 1,226.13
% change from 1.7 : -3.27%
Squareroot of DPS / n : 1.86
Avg Crit Backstab w/ dps scaling : 1,258.40
% change from 1.7 : -0.72%
Black Amnesty(53-100 1.6spd)
Min / Max : 53
Speed : 1.6
Avg Dps : 47.81
Avg Crit Backstab : 1,130.91
Avg Crit Backstab w/ 1.8 : 1,151.61
% change from 1.7 : 1.83%
Squareroot of DPS / n : 1.82
Avg Crit Backstab w/ dps scaling : 1,176.38
% change from 1.7 : 4.02%
The Lobotomizer(59-111 1.8spd)
Min / Max : 59
Speed : 1.8
Avg Dps : 47.22
Avg Crit Backstab : 1,207.50
Avg Crit Backstab w/ 1.8 : 1,186.80
% change from 1.7 : -1.71%
Squareroot of DPS / n : 1.81
Avg Crit Backstab w/ dps scaling : 1,209.23
% change from 1.7 : 0.14%
Felstriker(54-101 1.7spd)
Min / Max : 54
Speed : 1.7
Avg Dps : 45.59
Avg Crit Backstab : 1,155.75
Avg Crit Backstab w/ 1.8 : 1,155.75
% change from 1.7 : 0.00%
Squareroot of DPS / n : 1.78
Avg Crit Backstab w/ dps scaling : 1,171.65
% change from 1.7 : 1.38%
Alcor's Sunrazor(41-77 1.3spd)
Min / Max : 41
Speed : 1.3
Avg Dps : 45.38
Avg Crit Backstab : 996.36
Avg Crit Backstab w/ 1.8 : 1,079.16
% change from 1.7 : 8.31%
Squareroot of DPS / n : 1.77
Avg Crit Backstab w/ dps scaling : 1,094.24
% change from 1.7 : 9.82%
Electrified/Glacial Blade(53-100 1.8spd 10agi[10ap .34crit])
Min / Max : 53
Speed : 1.8
Avg Dps : 42.50
Avg Crit Backstab : 1,172.31
Avg Crit Backstab w/ 1.8 : 1,151.61
% change from 1.7 : -1.77%
Squareroot of DPS / n : 1.72
Avg Crit Backstab w/ dps scaling : 1,154.83
% change from 1.7 : -1.49%
Heartseeker (49-92 1.7spd 4str 1%crit [4ap])
Min / Max : 49
Speed : 1.7
Avg Dps : 41.47
Avg Crit Backstab : 1,126.77
Avg Crit Backstab w/ 1.8 : 1,126.77
% change from 1.7 : 0.00%
Squareroot of DPS / n : 1.69
Avg Crit Backstab w/ dps scaling : 1,125.67
% change from 1.7 : -0.10%
Specter's Blade (51-96 1.8spd)
Min / Max : 51
Speed : 1.8
Avg Dps : 40.83
Avg Crit Backstab : 1,159.89
Avg Crit Backstab w/ 1.8 : 1,139.19
% change from 1.7 : -1.78%
Squareroot of DPS / n : 1.68
Avg Crit Backstab w/ dps scaling : 1,135.38
% change from 1.7 : -2.11%
Barman Shanker(51-95 2spd)
Min / Max : 51
Speed : 2
Avg Dps : 36.50
Avg Crit Backstab : 1,199.22
Avg Crit Backstab w/ 1.8 : 1,137.12
% change from 1.7 : -5.18%
Squareroot of DPS / n : 1.59
Avg Crit Backstab w/ dps scaling : 1,114.32
% change from 1.7 : -7.08%
[ post edited by Matil ]
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=597263&p=#post597263 | | | Poster: Tseric at 9/24/2005 4:59:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 1.8 AP Nerf - Alternative Solutions & Num |
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To reiterate a sentiment previously expressed in this thread, I like the constructive discussion happening here. I have talked to the warriors briefly about this topic and I wanted to chime in with the rogues, as well.
First, I'm glad that there isn't a lot of hyperbole in this discussion. Yes, some weapons will be dealing less damage on instant attacks. I'm not going to bother arguing that there is some nerfing going on with this change. However, I have been hearing claims or notions of an "across-the-board, class-crippling nerf" and I have a tough time agreeing. The upcoming change is altering a combat mechanic, yes. This is naturally going to have ripple effects for some melee classes; again, no argument. What I think people are glossing over, is that this is targeting very particular elements which were over-used or too heavily relied upon as class (or talent tree) defining. Particularly, Shanker/Evis and Arcanite Reaper/Mortal Strike. I think some players are taking this as a personal attack, which then leads to arguing with emotion, which, in turn, provides less useful feedback.
I am more than willing to discuss with the devs the reasoning behind the numbers chosen and provide feedback from here regarding the slight tweak you seem to prefer. However, I don't think for a moment that these numbers are arbitrary. I would like to go into such a discussion armed with as many facts as possible. This thread is providing good ammo for debate.
Regardless, we are watching the development of this issue and I will look forward to more constructive posts like this one. Threads like this really help me to help you.
Cheers.
All things are subject to change
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=597263&p=#post597847 | Poster: Tseric at 9/24/2005 4:59:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 1.8 AP Nerf - Alternative Solutions & Num *edited post* |
| |
To reiterate a sentiment previously expressed in this thread, I like the constructive discussion happening here. I have talked to the warriors briefly about this topic and I wanted to chime in with the rogues, as well.
First, I'm glad that there isn't a lot of hyperbole in this discussion. Yes, some weapons will be dealing less damage on instant attacks. I'm not going to bother arguing that there is some nerfing going on with this change. However, I have been hearing claims or notions of an "across-the-board, class-crippling nerf" and I have a tough time agreeing. The upcoming change is altering a combat mechanic, yes. This is naturally going to have ripple effects for some melee classes; again, no argument. What I think people are glossing over, is that this is targeting very particular elements which were over-used or too heavily relied upon as class (or talent tree) defining. Particularly, Shanker/Ambush and Arcanite Reaper/Mortal Strike. I think some players are taking this as a personal attack, which then leads to arguing with emotion, which, in turn, provides less useful feedback.
I am more than willing to discuss with the devs the reasoning behind the numbers chosen and provide feedback from here regarding the slight tweak you seem to prefer. However, I don't think for a moment that these numbers are arbitrary. I would like to go into such a discussion armed with as many facts as possible. This thread is providing good ammo for debate.
Regardless, we are watching the development of this issue and I will look forward to more constructive posts like this one. Threads like this really help me to help you.
Cheers.[ post edited by Tseric ]
All things are subject to change
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=597263&p=#post597847 | Poster: Tseric at 9/24/2005 5:34:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 1.8 AP Nerf - Alternative Solutions & Num |
| |
Q u o t e:
I think you mean Shanker/Ambush, since this change doesn't affect Eviscerate at all. Eviscerate is flat damage, not affected by either Weapon or Attack Power.
Indeed. Edited for truth!
All things are subject to change
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=597263&p=#post597905 | Poster: Tseric at 9/27/2005 3:47:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Yes, yes... |
| |
So, I have discussed this with the dev team and presented your concerns. The numbers used in this upcoming change have been deliberated over for some time. They have gone through a good deal of data to arrive at these numbers and consider them the best fit for what this change is going to accomplish.
Overall, this small change will help itemization currently and in the future. At this time, due to the minor effects this change will have on instant attacks, it is not deemed worthwhile to increase the base numbers for purposes of "buffing the nerf". I realize a lot of rogues may take this as an attack to their personal damage output. However, the actual effect is small and the broader game goals outweigh it. As it stands, with the great deal of damage that warriors and rogues dish out currently, this will not affect the situation as greatly as some may make it out to be. More will be gained in terms of balanced itemization than with a loss of a handful of damage points.
So, while you may not have gotten exactly what you had preferred, this thread has value in and of itself. I'm glad that I could present your ideas in a clear manner to the dev team and I think this works to strengthen the rapport between the company and the players. I look forward to more threads like this.[ post edited by Tseric ]
All things are subject to change
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=597263&p=#post605418 | Poster: Tseric at 9/28/2005 2:14:01 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Yes, yes... |
| |
Q u o t e:
A: How does changing weapon speeds to a STATIC number help itemization? Basically, aren't you just lessening the options available to the Developers? Wouldn't it be better to adjust the problem weapons? Either way people are going to be upset but options would not be limited.
This was done to de-emphasize the fact that weapon speed dominated because it could play out to be, in the current mechanics, a (over)powerful multiplier. This multiplier worked as a dramatic bonus to instant attacks. To standardize the bonus for instant attacks, we shift the focus on to other stats of the weapon. The other stats of the weapon are considered to be more important for purposes of instant attack calculation. As for the exact numbers (particularly 1.7), it doesn't make sense to balance a combat mechanic on higher(top)-end items. Most of the high-end daggers are 1.8 speed, yes. Why make that the defining measure? 1.7 provides for the faster weapons and the epics are affected minimally. Middle ground is strengthened for weapons as a whole, which creates a better foundation for balance.
Q u o t e:
B: The nerf as proposed now affects combat rogues to a greater degree that the ass/sub rogues. PvP (and I am sure this is being done for PvP) players hate the ass/sub build more than the combat build. What is the purpose of limiting the class to the most hated build?
This is best put into context with the upcoming melee hit chance change. With the instant attack change, this change couples to place more viablity into dual-wielding specs. Again, utilizing existing itemization, we are putting strong medians into melee balance. These two small changes are working to redefine melee combat trees (war/fury,rog/combat). For your class particularly, combat rogues may be taking the brunt of the instant attack change, but are reaping the most benefit from the melee hit chance change. We are attempting to balance two classes talent trees at once with two minor changes. We're not suggesting doing a talent respec, we just want you to take another look at the items available in a new light.
Q u o t e:
C: Rogues are the least desired class in high-level instances. The lack of decent armor by a melee class was supposed to be offset by a high DPS. Warriors are out DPSing rogues, require less healing because of plate armor, and hold aggro away from the other classes. In addition, rogues lack the ability to stun and stealth in high-level instances. If rogues are to be delegated to a PvP environment, could you please put that in the class description?
Ok, I'm not gonna say this is the end all be all of changes that's gonna make everything sunshine and rainbows. However, warriors are affected by these changes as much as rogues are, so I'm going to hold off on any statement as to competitiveness or value in high-end dungeons. We are looking to balance the class(es) in itself. To balance the class with the game (or with raid dungeons, particularly), that is another matter.
Q u o t e:
Rather than making blanket statements, could you please address these issues? Yes, we know it's "your ball" but let us know the reasoning behind the changes to the rules of the game.
I hope I have been somewhat more poignant in my comments, here. Basically, we would like people to be more focused on the class rather than on a build. These changes affect classes as a whole for the better and smooth out inconsistencies with individual builds or specs.
In closing, I would like to provide an adage which, I think, is usually overlooked.
"Don't knock it 'til ya tried it"
All things are subject to change
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=597263&p=#post606669 | Poster: Tseric at 9/24/2005 4:59:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 1.8 AP Nerf - Alternative Solutions & Num *edited post* |
| |
To reiterate a sentiment previously expressed in this thread, I like the constructive discussion happening here. I have talked to the warriors briefly about this topic and I wanted to chime in with the rogues, as well.
First, I'm glad that there isn't a lot of hyperbole in this discussion. Yes, some weapons will be dealing less damage on instant attacks. I'm not going to bother arguing that there is some nerfing going on with this change. However, I have been hearing claims or notions of an "across-the-board, class-crippling nerf" and I have a tough time agreeing. The upcoming change is altering a combat mechanic, yes. This is naturally going to have ripple effects for some melee classes; again, no argument. What I think people are glossing over, is that this is targeting very particular elements which were over-used or too heavily relied upon as class (or talent tree) defining. Particularly, Shanker/Ambush and Arcanite Reaper/Mortal Strike. I think some players are taking this as a personal attack, which then leads to arguing with emotion, which, in turn, provides less useful feedback.
I am more than willing to discuss with the devs the reasoning behind the numbers chosen and provide feedback from here regarding the slight tweak you seem to prefer. However, I don't think for a moment that these numbers are arbitrary. I would like to go into such a discussion armed with as many facts as possible. This thread is providing good ammo for debate.
Regardless, we are watching the development of this issue and I will look forward to more constructive posts like this one. Threads like this really help me to help you.
Cheers.[ post edited by Tseric ]
All things are subject to change
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=597263&p=#post597847 | Poster: Tseric at 9/24/2005 5:34:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 1.8 AP Nerf - Alternative Solutions & Num *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
I think you mean Shanker/Ambush, since this change doesn't affect Eviscerate at all. Eviscerate is flat damage, not affected by either Weapon or Attack Power.
Indeed. Edited for truth!
All things are subject to change
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=597263&p=#post597905 | Poster: Tseric at 9/27/2005 3:47:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Yes, yes... *edited post* |
| |
So, I have discussed this with the dev team and presented your concerns. The numbers used in this upcoming change have been deliberated over for some time. They have gone through a good deal of data to arrive at these numbers and consider them the best fit for what this change is going to accomplish.
Overall, this small change will help itemization currently and in the future. At this time, due to the minor effects this change will have on instant attacks, it is not deemed worthwhile to increase the base numbers for purposes of "buffing the nerf". I realize a lot of rogues may take this as an attack to their personal damage output. However, the actual effect is small and the broader game goals outweigh it. As it stands, with the great deal of damage that warriors and rogues dish out currently, this will not affect the situation as greatly as some may make it out to be. More will be gained in terms of balanced itemization than with a loss of a handful of damage points.
So, while you may not have gotten exactly what you had preferred, this thread has value in and of itself. I'm glad that I could present your ideas in a clear manner to the dev team and I think this works to strengthen the rapport between the company and the players. I look forward to more threads like this.[ post edited by Tseric ]
All things are subject to change
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=597263&p=#post605418 | Poster: Tseric at 9/28/2005 2:14:01 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Yes, yes... *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
A: How does changing weapon speeds to a STATIC number help itemization? Basically, aren't you just lessening the options available to the Developers? Wouldn't it be better to adjust the problem weapons? Either way people are going to be upset but options would not be limited.
This was done to de-emphasize the fact that weapon speed dominated because it could play out to be, in the current mechanics, a (over)powerful multiplier. This multiplier worked as a dramatic bonus to instant attacks. To standardize the bonus for instant attacks, we shift the focus on to other stats of the weapon. The other stats of the weapon are considered to be more important for purposes of instant attack calculation. As for the exact numbers (particularly 1.7), it doesn't make sense to balance a combat mechanic on higher(top)-end items. Most of the high-end daggers are 1.8 speed, yes. Why make that the defining measure? 1.7 provides for the faster weapons and the epics are affected minimally. Middle ground is strengthened for weapons as a whole, which creates a better foundation for balance.
Q u o t e:
B: The nerf as proposed now affects combat rogues to a greater degree that the ass/sub rogues. PvP (and I am sure this is being done for PvP) players hate the ass/sub build more than the combat build. What is the purpose of limiting the class to the most hated build?
This is best put into context with the upcoming melee hit chance change. With the instant attack change, this change couples to place more viablity into dual-wielding specs. Again, utilizing existing itemization, we are putting strong medians into melee balance. These two small changes are working to redefine melee combat trees (war/fury,rog/combat). For your class particularly, combat rogues may be taking the brunt of the instant attack change, but are reaping the most benefit from the melee hit chance change. We are attempting to balance two classes talent trees at once with two minor changes. We're not suggesting doing a talent respec, we just want you to take another look at the items available in a new light.
Q u o t e:
C: Rogues are the least desired class in high-level instances. The lack of decent armor by a melee class was supposed to be offset by a high DPS. Warriors are out DPSing rogues, require less healing because of plate armor, and hold aggro away from the other classes. In addition, rogues lack the ability to stun and stealth in high-level instances. If rogues are to be delegated to a PvP environment, could you please put that in the class description?
Ok, I'm not gonna say this is the end all be all of changes that's gonna make everything sunshine and rainbows. However, warriors are affected by these changes as much as rogues are, so I'm going to hold off on any statement as to competitiveness or value in high-end dungeons. We are looking to balance the class(es) in itself. To balance the class with the game (or with raid dungeons, particularly), that is another matter.
Q u o t e:
Rather than making blanket statements, could you please address these issues? Yes, we know it's "your ball" but let us know the reasoning behind the changes to the rules of the game.
I hope I have been somewhat more poignant in my comments, here. Basically, we would like people to be more focused on the class rather than on a build. These changes affect classes as a whole for the better and smooth out inconsistencies with individual builds or specs.
In closing, I would like to provide an adage which, I think, is usually overlooked.
"Don't knock it 'til ya tried it"
All things are subject to change
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=597263&p=#post606669 |
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