Poster: Lucenta at 8/12/2005 3:03:45 AM PDT
Subject: Tyren, this ones for you babe! |
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Anyway, I don't know what got into Tyren but he's been setting up a lot of stickies recently AND I LIKE IT! ^.^ Someone put it well by saying the dormant volcano, that is Tyren, has erupted. The problem is the times that he does reply to the posts is done in a condescending tone like we are little kids and he separates himself from us on a personal level by seeming cold and calculating by determining balance off of "statistics" rather than personal experience with his two lv 60 rogues.
The problem that inlies with his "60 rogues" was they were back from a much different time where a lot of the classes were broken whilst the rogue is still the way it is... with the exception of a few bug fixes that weakened us as well as a few minor nerfs. The rogue then was the king of pvp and had many bugs unintentionally making them stronger (seal fate, ghostly strike, backstabbing with swords, stealthing through enviromental damage, as well as talent tree revision in beta nerfing the crit rogue, etc...). Now, the other classes are fixed and on top of that, they are also getting buffs. Add this both together and balance isn't what it used to be.
Now for most peoples complaints summed up
--Garrote
is useless...it's damage is less than a non-crit ambush and it only generates 1 CP (it also has to run its course of 18 seconds to do this minuscule damage... this also hinders stunning.)
--Rupture
is useless as it can not crit and deals around the same damage as Eviscerate (while hindering stunning and taking up a debuff slot)
--Eviscerate
is a rogues main source of finishing DPS...but with the new weapons coming out our enemies moves get stronger while ours remains the same. Throw onto this they get better armor and its damage is even further lowered making it a more and more unimpressive move.
--Poisons
Instant poison and Crippling poison are the only ones worth using. Mind numbing and Wound are too situational. In mass PvP you want something that will work on EVERYONE. Switching poisons also take you out of stealth to apply… they also take too long to do it on the fly for each target as well as being too expensive. Doing the math they are about 8s per poison. If you remove the old poison before the duration that's 16s gone and then 2 new ones is another 16s brining you to the grand total of 32s per switch. Vile poisons take time to do their damage for around the same DPS as the instant poison. **Instantly is always better than over time if it's the same damage** it also make stunning a very unpleasant situation.
THE ROGUES DAMAGE HERE IS THE SAME REGUARDLESS OF EQUIPMENT THIS IS WHY WE ARE TAPERING OFF LATE GAME! Rogues are in the same boat with mages… mages items add minor +spell damage while melee gets incredible new weapons. Problem is rogues abilities for the most part don't utilize their weapons or attack power and we don't get minor +ability damage so we are WORSE off than mages. Our attack power needs to be calculated into the physical attacks and the DoT's need A LOT of buffing.
--Daggers
The end game daggers aren't what they should be. For some reason they almost all have some strange DoT proc and high dps with a fast attack speeds. It's a no brainer… epic mainhands should be 2.0 for daggers--the barman is what a dagger SHOULD be.
--Dodge
Against warriors it's counter productive and also against hunters there is no dodge. Dodge also received a substantial nerf because you can only dodge front / parry frontal attacks. This in essence made the rogue much worse at group pvp then they already were where the attackers come from all angles *yet another unintended nerf*
--Stealth
Hunters mark is instant cast and unresistable with a very large distance in which it can be cast. Farie fire is the same thing. Both take away the very important ability to stealth for over a minute. In group PvP there are plenty of druids / hunters...so this is always on a rogue --especially if you are as unique as my character (Dwarven rogue...not many of 'em)
ALSO THE MOST ANNOYING THING WHILE STEALTHED is having a hunters multi shot hit you when he can't possible see you, or having a chain lightning hit you. Throw ontop of this every class has a DoT of some kind and in mass PvP the rogue has no way to cleanse these effects or to re enter stealth to get away. Thus our much revered abilities for escape are nullified. Also it's rediculas non damaging things reveal us such as Earthbind totems and warrior shouts.
--Snares
A Rogues has a severely limited way of catching their targets that are just out of reach. If they have an arms length lead you don't want to burn sprint... BUT your only option to catch a fleeing target in a timely manner is a 5 minute cooldown sprint, and then you have to pray for crippling to proc (If you have it on). While this isn't bad in 1v1 pvp or WSG it's terrible for the fast paced action of Alterac where you need to drop your targets fast and you never have your cool downs up because EVERYONE runs. This is even more apparent in the next topic...
--CTF & Shaman Have a rogue on defense with double crippling poison? No problem... Shaman jumps down, takes flag, drops an earthbind, hits you with a frost shock, drops a poison cleanse, then casts ghost wolf and is home free. Sprint as much as you want...you're not stoping that shaman since your ONLY snare is melee poisons in which they cleanse.
--Stats
Why do warriors BP's have so much more stats than a rogues BP? Go ahead add up the stats for the stats that COUNT (Agil, Str & Stam). For epics warriors always have around +20 additional stats. Also we tend to have MORE useless stats IE Shadowcraft for some reason it has +12 spirit…yay. Also when you give the warriors all this extra stats, think about this. 1 str = 2 atk power and 20 agil = 1 crit. For a rogue it's 1str = 1 atk power 1 agil = 1 atk power 30 agil = 1 crit Alright, so in terms of attack power we are on par with warriors—but warriors crit chances are going to grow exponentially faster than rogues? /boggle
--Money
Rogues bust the most expensive reagents and the largest quantity of them than ANY other class.
Blind- 8g for 20 fadeleaf
Thistle Tea- 50s PER tea
Vanish- 20c per
Poisons- 8s PER
Then for some unknown reason the Devs nerfed the already useless pickpocket (never heard anyone cry about that) so you can't get gems which were already near impossible. It's also unusable in PvP…
--Cooldowns
I must say, this is nitpicking but I am envious of some other classes cooldowns. The rogue has no "powerful" LONG cooldown moves like say a warrior with his shield wall, recklessness, etc or a paladins lay of hands which is a free "IWIN".
Now hey, Tyren this little spots for you explaining why people are so angry. When people suggest things you shoot them down and so far you haven't said anything positive for the rogue class. We have two tier five talents for abilities you claim as being a "status symbol"...that just wont fly. Fix the item, fix the talent, or remove the talent and replace it with something useful.
Someone suggested this in a different post in a not so nice manner you danced around it and said it wouldn't be so nice if you called the developer stupid... In another post someone said they wished we had a class rep. (Obviously taking this personally) you responds with a snyde comment along the lines of "What you think you will get everything you want if you had a class rep?" Honestly, if a class rep is dedicated to our class... I don't think it could POSSIBLY hurt.
Also you were MIA for the longest time and it seems you now long for an embrace with open arms while coming to the table with nothing, shooting down suggestions, and basically saying rediculas things like "working as intended" to things that are DEFINATELY not working as intended... IE throwing weapons and fist weapons in game as well as our talents that go along with them, and then mocking some of the posters? They have a right to be angry even if they are of lesser intelligence =p.
Also it seems when there are 2 pages of GOOD feedback, you pick out the single most unintelligent post and berate it, completely ignoring all the other posts. This tends to put everyone in a bad mood as it makes you appear as thought you dont want to be here and the only reason you are here is because all the other classes are getting attention. Just ignore that idiot and tell us what you think of the good ones.
If you are really here, and really plan to make some changes and not simply show presence I will be the first to say welcome! However time will tell and everyone is keeping a skeptical eye on the forgotten stranger. But hey just for showing up and putting up with all of our garbage <33 babe!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=497015&p=#post497015 | | | Poster: Tyren at 8/12/2005 11:14:19 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Tyren, this ones for you babe! |
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We answered a lot of these questions during the last feedback, which you can read here:https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=485255&p=1&tmp=1#post485255
Rogue DOT performance - We recognize it's not very powerful, and a point the developers have been considering. But the question is, should rogues be able to DOT very powerfully, or is it just secondary to their DDs? The devs feel they are secondary.
Eviscerate - Yep they can see players opinion that at level 60, evis isn't as powerful as at lower levels, and this is one area they are considering addressing.
Poisons - Poisons are definitely getting a review. But never take that as a good thing. Some might get nerfed and others buffed. I'm not sure of the exact details, but a "review" as some uncomfortable connotations.
Daggers - Slower, more powerful daggers. There are such daggers, they are just harder to obtain. Will they add a great deal more slower more powerful daggers, that isn't clear. You know the CB/Ambush/Vanish/Ambush/Eviscerate trick? You can mess up a cloth wearer with 1 of these. Maybe not everyone uses it, but the devs have to consider even this specific case when they think about adding these kinds of daggers.
Money - Maybe not all rogues do this, but a lot just farm instances constantly. The fact that rogues have this potential gives devs pause when they consider money sinks for the rogue class.
Also, good intelligent feedback is being collected for further consideration. The things that get instant responses are the simple issues we can clear up quickly.
I'm trying to give the well thought out posts the proper respect by collecting and reviewing them.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=497015&p=#post497901 | Poster: Tyren at 8/12/2005 11:28:55 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Tyren, this ones for you babe! |
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Q u o t e:
Yes this is what we wanted. Not terribly detailed but good enough. There were a couple of other things the original poster suggested like snares. If you can get around to bringing that up would be pretty cool too.
I don't really have anything to say about snares. I mean, rogues get snares, some pretty nice snares, and honestly all other classes would go insane if we improved rogue snare ability from what it already is.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=497015&p=#post497948 |
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