Poster: Aalea at 6/5/2006 11:56:09 PM PDT
Subject: Eight things I'd like to see in the Rogue rev |
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Here's my list, put up here in the hopes that a Dev might see/read/receive it. Feel free to comment and/or flame. it doesn't really matter to me.
1] Combo Points system altered to self buff, rather than target reliant.
In other words, the way the 5 cp system effects finishing moves remains unchanged, but instead of the CPs stacking on the target per SS/BS/Hemo etc, the CPs stack on the Rogue and move with the Rogue when he/she switches targets.
This would overcome the PvE problems of "wasted points" when a mob dies with CPs still on it, as well as the wastage of points during encounters where Rogues must switch targets constantly [core hounds, suppression room, skeram, sartura, etc]. The tremendous disadvantage of being unable to effectively swap targets in PvP is one that no other class endures, and the need to change this should be self explanatory.
2. All static Damage Finishing Moves should scale with equipment.
Eviscerate. Rupture. Garrote. These moves were considered balanced at release, when characters were lucky to be running around with full sets of blue lvl 54 dungeon armour. They still do exactly the same damage now, despite the fact that most of my opponents are now wearing epics, and I myself am covered in Tier 2 dungeon loot.
These moves should scale in dmg dependent upon the gear the Rogue is wearing, be that through a portion of weapon damage, base attack power, agility, or any other variable that scales upwards as a character progresses in terms of loot.
Eviscerate, Rupture and Garrote need to scale with gear.
3. Rogue cooldowns need to be lowered across the board.
Rogues are the most cooldown reliant class in the game, and these cooldowns are exceedingly long in comparison to other classes. The upshot of this is that Rogues can be very effective opponents once every 5 minutes, and then find themselves easy meat for the same opponent until the cooldowns are back up again.
A Rogue cannot reasonably hope to win against most equally geared/skilled opponent without blowing multiple CDs.
Mage - Vanish to break FN. Sprint to regain ground after Blink/Chilled. Potentially need a Blind to recover from the kite.
Hunter - Sprint to regain ground after FD/Trap/Snare. Evasion to avoid WIngclip/Imp wingclip once melee range is regained. Potentially need a Blind to recover from the kite. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Druid - Vanish to break Entangle. Evasion to avoid Bash root through to full heal. Adrenaline Rush to overcome Frenzied regeneration. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Warrior - Evasion to avoid MS/Hamstring. AR/BF to overcome 6000 odd hp and more armour than a Sherman Tank. Potentially need a Blind/Bandage. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Priest - Sprint to regain ground on Fear Kite. Potentially need a Blind to recover from the kite. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Warlock - As above in regards to kite. Blind to disorient Warlock while pet [succubus] is killed. AR/BF to get through SL/5000+ hp. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Shaman - Sprint/Blind to recover from Frostshock/Earthbind kite. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Paladin - Blind to break BoP. AR/BF to get through Plate/Shield. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Rogue skills have many counterparts amongst other classes. But when one examines the cooldowns/requirements of those similar skills, one finds the Rogue at a distinct disadvantage. eg
Blind v Scattershot.
10 second disorient. 3 minute cooldown. Requires an expensive reagent on acquired through a specific trade skill.
v
4 second disorient. 30 second cooldown. Requires no reagent.
Our once powerful cooldowns are no longer as powerful given the escalating game environment. Their cooldowns should be shortened accordingly.
4. Vanish.
No skill since the creation of this game has enjoyed more bugs/breaks than the primary escape tool of the Rogue. Not only is it counterable by every class with the press of a single button, it often utterly fails to work in PvE [mob do not lose aggro nor target and simply knock the rogue from stealth], was nerfed in boss encounters so that it fails to remove us from combat [despite Feign Death still continuing to do so], and is broken by auto attacks, DoTs, AoEs and sneezing bunnies.
It also enjoys a 5 minute cooldown, and requires a reagent.
I'd like the skill to work.
A reduction in the cooldown would be greatly appreciated too, but really, I just want it TO WORK.
5. Stealth.
The primary, defining skill of the Rogue. The skill that allows us to perform our most devastating moves. The skill, without which, we are free CP in any group PvP matchup. The skill by which Rogues live or die.
With no augmentation in skill level, a rogue can be seen by an equal level character from 20 yards away. Stealth is countered by every class with the press of a single button, and is even negated by AoE effects that are resisted by the rogue in question. AoE effects that do not cause damage similarly negate stealth, and first rank AoE attacks that do not remove 0.02% of my health bar still utterly negate the one ability which defines my character's existence.
Stealth needs it's detection range decreased, should not be broken by resisted attacks, nor effects that do not cause damage/Fear.
6. Kiteability.
Rogues have 2 means through which they can break a kite, and every class in the game bar Paladins will attempt to kite a Rogue given a modicum of skill.
Both of these anti-kite skills are on exceedingly long cooldowns. Blind requires an expensive reagent, and Sprint can be easily countered by snares, roots and CC.
Our own snare, Crippling Poison, procs intermittently at best, and can either be Trinketed away or dispelled by almost every class that we'd use it against. Additionally, the absolute necessity of Crippling Poison in almost any PvP matchup makes every other Poison in our arsenal virtually useless in PvP.
Rogues need a more reliable snare, a reduction in the CDs on our anti-kite skills, or a new skill which helps us overcome the childlike ease in which we are kited by any class that wants to.
7. Survivability.
With full buffs, Mages and Priests who wear cloth are on an even footing with Rogues in terms of armour. Warlocks, a cloth wearing, caster class easily exceed Rogues in terms of hitpoints. Hunters, a ranged class that, when played properly, almost never sees melee combat, can almost double Rogues in terms of armour.
Rogues are a melee class, requiring close quarter combat to be effective. Rogues have near the lowest armour in the game, and mediocre hit points. Our primary means of dmg mitigation - Dodge - does nothing to counter AoE attacks, Ranged Attacks and Spells, and the only skill based mitigation skill we have - Evasion - simply augments Dodge.
In every fantasy system I have ever played in, electronic or otherwise, Rogue-type classes are given a means by which AoE/Ranged/Spell dmg can be mitigated to make their low hp/low AC state viable.
A portion of a Rogues Dodge should be applied to mitigate Ranged and AoE effects, augmentable by the Evasion skill. We should also be given a means by which to augment our armour, most logically through the combat tree.
8. End Game Role.
Rogues were once the primary damage dealers in Raids. We sacrified utility and survivability to be the single best dmg dealing class in the game. This is the line we were sold, and it's why most of us rolled Rogues in the first place.
Fury Warriors are now approaching Rogue DPS output on many raids. In addition to DPS, Fury warriors bring group utility, and have near triple the armour of Rogues and double the hit points.
Warlocks are also approaching Rogue damage in Raids. This is a cloth class that never has to come close to taking damage in PvE, has a multitude of grp buffs and excellent group utility.
Hunters are also approaching Rogue DPS in raids. They have double our armour, never have to take damage, and can buff the raid in multiple ways.
I do not mind sacrificing utility on Raids. I rolled this character to do one thing - damage. Not to buff other players. Not to open locked doors. Not to remove traps. But given these sacrifices, I want to be the best at what I do, bar none. I have to stand in the thick of the fight. I take the Cleaves, I eat the AoE. I suck up the mana. That's fine. What's not fine is seeing another class exceed my dmg output whilst being able to provide buffs/utility/survivability to the raid.
Rogues should be the best there is at what they do.
If the Rogue review doesn't come close to addressing all these issues. I'm pretty much done. Not a threat. Not a whine. Just a statement from a guy sick of paying to play a game that I find unejoyable due to the deteriorating nature of his class.
That is all. Please feel free to contribute /sign /cheer /crymoren00b /l2p and /whaaaambulances.[ post edited by Aalea ]
http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?732013]
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=1194347&p=#post1194347 | | | Poster: Drysc at 6/8/2006 10:24:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Eight things I'd like to see in the Rogue |
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I do like the original post and I think it provides some fairly conservative suggestions for the class, as well as bringing up a good portion of what I would consider main concerns. That isnt to say that these are changes that will or will not be made, but if nothing else I think its a well presented post.
The review will mainly be focused on talent changes and improvements, and I think that a lot of the concerns can be addressed solely through them. Keep in mind that 1.12 is a ways off though still, but I think were in pretty good shape for when we do ramp up for the changes in the rogue class.
What am I to say to all these ghouls tonight?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=1194347&p=#post1202547 | Poster: Drysc at 6/8/2006 10:44:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Eight things I'd like to see in the Rogue |
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I don't think the rogue class is broken, and neither do the designers. I'm not sure why a priest saying so would be more telling than a rogue, considering they aren't playing the class. Repeating hyperbole is not an accurate portrayal of a class, and I'm exhausted from seeing the term used.
I think with some appropriate changes the class can be improved, but I believe that some player expectations for what changes may occur are too high. I also believe that a majority of players know the class, and can appropriately voice reasonable concerns, hold reasonable conversations, and propose reasonable suggestions.
Some of you are just completely crazy though.
What am I to say to all these ghouls tonight?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=1194347&p=#post1202593 | Poster: Drysc at 6/8/2006 11:04:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Eight things I'd like to see in the Rogue |
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Q u o t e:
I expect my 15 minutes in the spotlight and anything less will result in an account closure.
A class review is intended to help balance and/or correct class abilities and talents, not overpower it so that it can easily overcome all other classes, or to compensate for player ability.[ post edited by Drysc ]
What am I to say to all these ghouls tonight?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=1194347&p=#post1202634 | Poster: Drysc at 6/9/2006 10:55:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Eight things I'd like to see in the Rogue |
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Q u o t e:
We only offer DPS. That's it. Do you grasp that?
Considering that is the core role of the rogue class, which we still do and still do well, of course. Regardless of other classes approaching that damage output, that does not suddenly "break" the class. Nor do any of the other things you mentioned.
If my car loses some of its high end and other cars were beginning to catch up, a windshield wiper flew off, etc. would I say its broken? No, its not on the side of the road piston-sticking-out-of-the-hood completely unusable, it just needs a bit of a tune-up. That is what a review is meant for. Im exhausted of seeing unreasonable words used in absolute terms when there are no absolutes present. We can have a logical discussion (as many here are obviously capable of), or you can claim that the class is completely unusable and I can easily ignore you.
What am I to say to all these ghouls tonight?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=1194347&p=#post1203225 | Poster: Drysc at 6/9/2006 11:23:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Eight things I'd like to see in the Rogue |
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Q u o t e:
As a rogue though, it is very disheartening when another class with more utility to the raid also approaches and many times surpasses our main role. It is not hyperbole to suggest that it is similar to a druid or hunter pet tanking as well or better than the main tank of a raid. The main tank would certainly find himself asking what is my role if my main job is suddenly overshadowed by some other class that can do it as effectively or even better.
This is the betrayal the rogues feel, our main role suddenly being minimalized by a class that can not only out damage us, but can throw on a sword and board and fill in another role. Or overshadowed by a class that stays at range, not requiring the massive amounts of healing to keep them up, think mana efficiency here, while also providing raid buffs, or raid utility.
Can we still output good damage? Yes. Can we bring ANYTHING else to the table? No, not really. Can other classes approach or surpass our damage? YES. Do they bring anything else to the table? YES. If you can not see the irony of this situation and understand that if this keeps up, the rogue class is heading to obsolescence. Obsolete may be hyperbole, but sometimes hyperbole is necessary to make a very important point that someone refuses to acknowledge.
You misunderstand me then. The points you brought up, just now, I fully acknowledge. It's posts like yours that I am willing to read and reply to. It presents a reasonable explanation of an issue in a fairly reasonable fashion.
The posts claiming the class is completely unusable, completely obsolete, lacks the ability to provide fun or enjoyment from the game, I don't acknowledge. I can see full well what is trying to be sold, and I don't buy it.
What am I to say to all these ghouls tonight?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=1194347&p=#post1203347 | Poster: Drysc at 6/9/2006 12:42:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Eight things I'd like to see in the Rogue |
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I'm really not bitter, nor do I think I'm heading down a negative path. I really enjoy the rogue class, and I do believe that there are improvements to be made. My comments are purposefully dismissive as I don't think any review has or could live up to each of the expectations surrounding it. If that means you end up disliking me so that I can lift the review off of an unreachable pedestal, then I'm willing to deal with that consequence. I enjoy posting here and interacting with everyone, so I hope it doesn't come to that.
I could discuss each issue until I'm blue in the face (no pun intended), but the discussions would be based on my personal opinion and not that of the actual direction of the class. Until the review even begins I would only be building false hope and making promises based on assumption. Trust me when I say you don't want me to do that, it won't end well.
I think the original post is great in that it lists the majority of the issues I read discussed here on a daily basis. Whether or not those issues will be touched upon in a review is dependant opon design decisions, that while I do have a quasi-observational role in, I am not qualified to make.
Once the review begins we will be able to talk about a lot more; I can acknowledge your concerns and provide responses. Until then I hope to herd the discussions to productive conversation and an objectified view of concerns with the class.
I knew it was a mistake to use a car analogy, they're always flawed. I guess I deserve the replies. :P[ post edited by Drysc ]
What am I to say to all these ghouls tonight?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=1194347&p=#post1203609 | Poster: Drysc at 6/9/2006 12:42:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Eight things I'd like to see in the Rogue *edited post* |
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I'm really not bitter, nor do I think I'm heading down a negative path. I really enjoy the rogue class, and I do believe that there are improvements to be made. My comments are purposefully dismissive as I don't think any review has or could live up to each of the expectations surrounding it. If that means you end up disliking me so that I can lift the review off of an unreachable pedestal, then I'm willing to deal with that consequence. I enjoy posting here and interacting with everyone, so I hope it doesn't come to that.
I could discuss each issue until I'm blue in the face (no pun intended), but the discussions would be based on my personal opinion and not that of the actual direction of the class. Until the review even begins I would only be building false hope and making promises based on assumption. Trust me when I say you don't want me to do that, it won't end well.
I think the original post is great in that it lists the majority of the issues I read discussed here on a daily basis. Whether or not those issues will be touched upon in a review is dependant opon design decisions, that while I do have a quasi-observational role in, I am not qualified to make.
Once the review begins we will be able to talk about a lot more; I can acknowledge your concerns and provide responses. Until then I hope to herd the discussions to productive conversation and an objectified view of concerns with the class.
I knew it was a mistake to use a car analogy, they're always flawed. I guess I deserve the replies. :P[ post edited by Drysc ]
What am I to say to all these ghouls tonight?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=1194347&p=#post1203609 |
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