Poster: Liliandra at 5/8/2006 11:13:41 AM PDT
Subject: Tseric, what justifies a mage's low defense? |
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Please don't let the level 1 fool you, I had a 60 mage for a long time but I recently deleted her. Anyways....
Lowest health and lowest armor. You wrote this...
Q u o t e:
And here is the real crux of the matter when it comes to some mage's discontent. I pretty much expect someone to cite the original description of the mage class from the manual any time now.
Since Beta, mages have been laboring under the impression that they should unequivocably be the greatest damage dealers in the game, in any situation, all the time.
This is not a perception that has fit into the design scheme of this game for quite a while. To hang on to a version of print as it gets outdated through the gradual growth and design of this game is to live forever with fantasies not being mirrored by reality.
If mages are no longer meant to be the ultimate in damage, why do they still RETAIN the weaknesses of an *era* when they WERE meant to be the ultimate in damage?
I won't mention rogues because they are a melee class (with no cheesy charge/intercept) that can get snared very easily. They deserve uber damage.
You mention that we shouldn't cite the original manual, doesn't that also say that mages are fragile and have very low defense? You say the devs do not want mages to get too much health or defense, but they had no problem changing the "vision" of mages when it came to damage. Things can change. Btw 3 minute mages don't count I think it's fascinating that shadow priests can do such insane damage in pvp, especially when you look at their class description on the website.
It SAYS under the priest class description "Most powerful Healing class". Why the special rules for healing? Each faction has 8 classes. 3 of those classes have the capacity to heal. It's ok for a healing class (when their are so few already) to be "the most powerful healing class", but it's not ok for a dps class to be the best at dps even though they are so many others who can do it? A shadow priest with good gear can do a ton of damage. This is a SUBset of the "most powerful healing class". But no spec in the world will allow the mage to heal.
Sure the priest can't be a shadow priest and still have the best priestly healing, but it's still the SAME CLASS. Is it ok for mages to tank or heal as long as it has it's own tree? For a class that can choose between uber damage and uber healing, it sure has pretty good defense. A 1k absorbing shield every mere FIFTEEN seconds along with with the highest armor of any of the cloth classes. Oh yea, and they can heal. Hell, they are dubbed "the most powerful healing class", isn't having THE MOST POWERFUL HEALING pretty good defense?
You might say "oh but a mage has good utility and good CC". But an aoe fear is nothing to sneeze at. IMO an aoe fear is better than frost-nova since people can't act while they are feared and tend to RUN AWAY.
In terms of CC, mages are by no means the best at it. A warrior has an UNDISPELLABLE 50% snare that can be reapplied with every hit. With their 2 ranged stuns (charge/intercept) it's not hard to get within range to hamstring someone. They have a 50% aoe snare as well. For a class that is arguably "needed" because of their tanking ability, they sure do get alot of perks. Isn't being "needed" what you claim blizz is trying to avoid by not making mages the highest damage dealers? With the right gear, warriors can become gods in damage. I've seen warriors in pvp who do so much godly damage it downright pisses me off. You can say "but they have uber bwl gear". Well isn't that what mages are told, to "gear up"? And it's not every 3 minutes either like the equally overpowered BWL, AP, Trinket mages.
I was once in a raid mixed with multiple rank 14 players and bwl geared rogues/mages/hunters. The hunters and rogues were at the top. But what I found strange was the warrior who dominated the top spot by such a WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE gap between himself and the 2nd place dps. I couldn't believe it.
When I look at the 3 strengths for a mage in the website, I STILL can't believe the crap that I read. TWO of our 3 main strengths are water/food and teleporting. Do the devs really put such amazing emphasis on those abilities?
Then there's warlocks. The third of the cloth classes. Depending on spec, they can have uber damage or uber defense. It's funny. Soul link gives more defense to a warlock than the whole frost-tree gives to a mage. The new ice barrier is a start in teh right direction, but right now soul link BLOWS away frost tree in terms of survivability. 30% damage reduction is huge, even if it is shared with their pets. If you're attacking the pet to kill it quick then you'er not attacking the lock. If you're attacking the lock, then you're dealing with 30% damage reduction. Now only are they considered by MANY to be anti CASTER, but that damage reduction helps a ton against melee.
If they spec for damage (you know like a mage has to spec for damage too), they still have beautiful CC which lets them pull that damage off MUCH MUCH easier in pvp. Fear does NOT HEAL. If an opponent is running farther than 30 yards and not allowing you to hit him because of fear, then that means you can attack someone else and you're safe from the previous person at least until fear wears off. Boy I sure wish I had the "problem" of people being out of range because of how effective my CC is.
In addition to that fear does NOT HEAL. It does not break on ANY damage. It's quite possible to get 2-3 spells off on a feared target. It happened a TON to me and it's happened a ton to enemies I have fought. I think it's funny that sheep heals, but sheep is the one that breaks on absolutely any damage. You can fear someone who is DOTed and still create a large distance, but I can't sheep someone who's DOTed.
Not to mention they have an AOE fear as well. That is powerful CC. To complete the CC madness, they can seduce someone (seduce doesn't heal EITHER!!!) with their succubus. That means they can take TWO people out of a fight with succubus and fear. AND those people will not regenerate all their health at lightning speed.
Am I saying mage CC is crap? No. Am I saying mage CC is good? No. I'm simply saying that CC is not a mage's "speciality" or some unique area where mages become gods, like so many people try to make it seem.
When I see hunters aim shot crit for way over 2k, and I see warriors charge at me and I lose half my health (not being able to prevent the charge for the same reason 2 mages can counterspell each other at the same time), and I see shadow priests take off 3/4 of my life and than I die 6 seconds later because no healing class in their right mind bothers to heal a weak "fragile" mana based class when they can heal their warriors, I ask myself "what on earth justifies a mage's defense?"
Please tell me what justifies a mage's defense. Please tell me why blizz can easily change the "vision" of mages being the biggest damage dealers, but then cling on to their weakness as if it's some holy word that cannot be changed because "that is the way it's always been".
Priests have AMAZING defense vs casters. Warlocks are supposed to be anti-casters. BOTH are capable of high damage. So yea, what justifies a mage's defense again? I have more to say, but this is already too long. Why can't mages have more defense? You said damage has to be competitive right? Why does their have to be a spot then for lowest defense class? Why can't blizz at LEAST give mages more defense against casters? Even with 4k health (and that's sacrificing alot of dmg), shadow priests can take me down quickly. I *can* ask for a heal but many times the healers i've been with (and it's been ALOT and MULTIPLE good teams) usually are healing the warriors/rogues/hunters. You say warlocks high health is supposed to be a form of defense. Well it is, against magic and hunters it helps alot.
A MERE cast of shadow word pain often times has taken 1.5k-2k health off of me from a shadow priest after it's duration has run. I have no way of dispelling an insane DOT like that. A shadow priest has HUGE range on it and can cast it instantly as well as simply drop out of shadow form and heal. WHAT THE HELL??? And they can STILL keep their nice 1k shields and cast it in shadow form.
So simple question to you Tseric. What justifies (in blizzard's eye) the low defense of a mage? Since they are no longer meant to be the sexiest damage dealers, what then justifies their crap defense? If it's supposed to be uber aoe, why is blizzard useless in PvP without talents? No one in their right mind is gonna stand in it for 8 seconds. Why is flamestrike nearly useless in PvP without PoM? We aim at a spot and wait 3 seconds and hope the people haven't moved out of it? Wtf??? Blastwave is good, but you gotta spec for it. I would KILL to have an AOE like chain lightning or multi-shot. Why? It's EASIER to use. Simple.
And lastly Tseric, *WHY* is not NOT ok to have a class deal the highest dmg? It's obviouly ok for a class to be "the most powerful healing class". Do I want mages to be the best damage dealers? Um YES. That's why I chose the class and foolishly leveled it. I wish I could have exchanged my mage for another class since blizzard changed their "vision". That would be fair right? We chose the class under a different pretense. And if it's not gonna be the best damage, then the strengths need to justify the weaknesses.
Please this is not a TROLL post. I'm looking for serious, REAL, good, and constructive answers/replies. ANY replies by ANYONE with ANY hint of attitude, flaming, or trolling, is gonna get ignored in an instant.
One last thing, I would still like it if mages were the kings of AOE. But aoe no matter what it's damage or 2ndary effects, NEEDS to be easier to use in pvp. People move in pvp, they don't "aggro" on one target and stay in a clump while that target maintains aggro so you can aoe. We need our aoe to be easier to use![ post edited by Liliandra ]
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=915754&p=#post915754 | | | Poster: Tseric at 5/8/2006 12:43:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Tseric, what justifies a mage's low defen |
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What justifies a low defense is that Mages are in a better position to avoid melee damage than any other class. The argument you have presented has been done so many times before. The issue with it, is that people are looking at it through linear terms, i.e. "If Im the BEST at this then I have to be the WORST at that".
Yes, this is based off of the perception of many that they "traded armor for high damage output". While this may have been enforced by game design in an older model of the "Holy Trinity", it was never expressly said that this was THE trade-off.
What we have is the developers trying to break up the trinity by overlapping roles and sharing elements with various classes. It is easiest to do so with damage, as that is something that everyone has the immediate potential to contribute. Every class has some sort of damage spell.
To spread out the other roles of Tanking and Healing is not as easy, as it can quickly homogenize classes.
Again, the players who will have difficulty with this philosophy will be the ones that measure their value simply by having game design enforce a clear superiority through numbers, or the ones who would say "but, I was told/promised that I would be the best, no matter what." They approach it from their own demands and concerns and do not see this in the context of all classes and the game. They can not find their role, because they expect to be pigeon-holed. They consider it identity. I can understand it to a degree, but at the same time, I have to acknowledge the fact that they limit themselves by choice, not by circumstance.[ post edited by Tseric ]
Repo man's got all night, every night!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=915754&p=#post916683 | Poster: Tseric at 5/8/2006 1:03:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Tseric, what justifies a mage's low defen |
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Q u o t e:
You understand that there are 6 out of 9 classes that do their damage primarily NON-melee, right?
Just wondering.
So? Armor and melee damage mitigation have nothing to do with that. Arguing about resist rates and counters to various spells should probably have it's own post, as it is a rather broad topic.
Repo man's got all night, every night!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=915754&p=#post916860 | Poster: Tseric at 5/8/2006 1:03:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Tseric, what justifies a mage's low defen *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
You understand that there are 6 out of 9 classes that do their damage primarily NON-melee, right?
Just wondering.
So? Armor and melee damage mitigation have nothing to do with that. Arguing about resist rates and counters to various spells should probably have it's own post, as it is a rather broad topic.
Repo man's got all night, every night!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=915754&p=#post916860 |
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