Poster: Schyla at 10/20/2005 5:29:20 PM PDT
Subject: #1 Mage(caster) Problem THEY don't understand |
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First of all, by THEY I am referring to anyone who plays a non-FULL casting based class and has never leveled one to 60 and played it for quite awhile.
After reading all these Blue posts trying to tell us that the resist rate is OK and that it will go away in time there is just ONE thing melee based classes don't get:
Caster Classes are based on Elemental damage.
While Melee classes gain in armor/stats nearly every single high end piece has some type of +Resistance to Elemental Damage (Mainly fire at the moment) that are added as a bonus ON TOP of the already high stats/armor. What this means is that melee classes gain in melee resistances (dodge,parry,etc) and ALSO can gain in Elemental resistances.
Caster Classes armor does not get this double benefit. Caster Classes have nothing they can get to up their chance to resist/miss/dodge a melee swing except for the base chance. SURE, we CAN get +agi gear, but let us be realistic...it is virtually impossible for a Caster Class to get +agi AND keep high stats in gear in other areas unlike a melee class can.
Why are melee classes continually able to stack up on +resistance gear to elemental damage and armor for melee damage, while casters can never get both?
If they made it so casters were able to get +dodge % chance to melee attacks, while melee classes weren't able to get +resistance to our spells, THEY would be complaining as well.
Thanks for reading.
Mage Language:
aaaadddwwww111111 = Rogue
Learn2Read
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=457439&p=#post457439 |
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Poster: Tseric at 10/20/2005 6:23:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: #1 Mage(caster) Problem THEY don't unders |
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Q u o t e:
And a main reason we are being dubbed "the complaining class" is because no one has a bunch of +shadow resistance yet or +nature resistance.
YES - Fire resistance is in ABUNDANCE for now...but look at the mages spells.
Only 4 of our MAIN spells are NON-FIRE.
Cone of Cold // Frostbolt // Arcane Explosion // Arcane Missiles.
Regardless if you play an Ice mage or not, YOU USE FIREBLAST/SCORCH if you are a good mage. You use Fire spells because that is nearly 70% of all the spells you have available. This is why the mages have stepped forward first regarding resist rates. Our main damage tree is nearly wiped clean from resistances and there is nothing you can do.
What you have is three spell schools. If fire resists are a big issue, you do have other spells to use. Now a warlock, for example, has only 2 spell trees, sahdow and fire. Shouldn't this affect the warlock more? Thats half of their schools being resisted. That's all of the AoE they have subject to resists.
The reason mages stepped forward first is because Fire-spec'ed mages in a PvP environment are affected the most. This specific illustration of the issue then bled over into arguements of how many fire-based dungeons there are and how this affects the overall direction of the class, many things thrown in to merely stir the pot. While there is merit to the original concern, it has been diluted with hyperbole to exaggerate severity and garner support from the forums.
What I'm seeing is, as this topic is discussed more, there are more qualifying factors being added. Lower level mages aren't qualified to comment (get to 60, noob). Pre-MC/Onyxia 60s aren't qualified to comment (Tier-2/Rank 14 gear has more FR, noob). non-hardcore PvPers aren't qualified to comment (try BGs at my level/rank, noob). The people who are "qualified" to really understand this issue grow smaller and more select by the day, yet this issue is touted as crippling the mage class as a whole. That doesn't really add up for me.
However, just for clarity on our stance...
-Itemization continues to be worked on with this issue in mind.
-A single talent tree is going to have advantages and disadvantages in the transition from PvE to PvP. One tree will not "own" in all respects.
-Other 20 and 40 man content will come, allowing fire magic more "center-stage" presence/necessity. Along with this, fire-resist gear is deemphasized as other resistances will have increasing demand.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=457439&p=#post457589 |
Poster: Tseric at 10/20/2005 6:23:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: #1 Mage(caster) Problem THEY don't unders *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
And a main reason we are being dubbed "the complaining class" is because no one has a bunch of +shadow resistance yet or +nature resistance.
YES - Fire resistance is in ABUNDANCE for now...but look at the mages spells.
Only 4 of our MAIN spells are NON-FIRE.
Cone of Cold // Frostbolt // Arcane Explosion // Arcane Missiles.
Regardless if you play an Ice mage or not, YOU USE FIREBLAST/SCORCH if you are a good mage. You use Fire spells because that is nearly 70% of all the spells you have available. This is why the mages have stepped forward first regarding resist rates. Our main damage tree is nearly wiped clean from resistances and there is nothing you can do.
What you have is three spell schools. If fire resists are a big issue, you do have other spells to use. Now a warlock, for example, has only 2 spell trees, shadow and fire. Shouldn't this affect the warlock more? Thats half of their schools being resisted. That's all of the AoE they have subject to resists.
The reason mages stepped forward first is because Fire-spec'ed mages in a PvP environment are affected the most. This specific illustration of the issue then bled over into arguements of how many fire-based dungeons there are and how this affects the overall direction of the class, many things thrown in to merely stir the pot. While there is merit to the original concern, it has been diluted with hyperbole to exaggerate severity and garner support from the forums.
What I'm seeing is, as this topic is discussed more, there are more qualifying factors being added. Lower level mages aren't qualified to comment (get to 60, noob). Pre-MC/Onyxia 60s aren't qualified to comment (Tier-2/Rank 14 gear has more FR, noob). non-hardcore PvPers aren't qualified to comment (try BGs at my level/rank, noob). The people who are "qualified" to really understand this issue grow smaller and more select by the day, yet this issue is touted as crippling the mage class as a whole. That doesn't really add up for me.
However, just for clarity on our stance...
-Itemization continues to be worked on with this issue in mind.
-A single talent tree is going to have advantages and disadvantages in the transition from PvE to PvP. One tree will not "own" in all respects.
-Other 20 and 40 man content will come, allowing fire magic more "center-stage" presence/necessity. Along with this, fire-resist gear is deemphasized as other resistances will have increasing demand.
EDIT- spelling[ post edited by Tseric ]
Do you see the forest or the trees?
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=457439&p=#post457589 |
Poster: Tseric at 10/20/2005 7:00:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: #1 Mage(caster) Problem THEY don't unders |
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Q u o t e:
I dont expect a reply to this, as CMs tend to respond with rather ignorant comments and never again.
Guess you got me all figured out, eh?
Q u o t e:
The arcane damage spell (arcane missiles) suchs in general, especially for PVP. Thus, leaving us with two trees. If you're even thinking about using IAE, then, well, you should quit your mage (if you even have one) completely.
This kind of selective judgement happens all the time. You are basing the validity of a whole school on one spell. This is taking your other arcane spells for granted. Blink, Evocation, Polymorph, Mana shield. All of these can have an application in PvP.
Q u o t e:
Anyone over level 60 is qualified to an opinion, as we got absolutely no where in terms of progress while other classes (warriors at the most extreme) skyrocket at 60. I do see the arguements you've suggested, but they're made by the... well, I wont go into that.
Everyone is qualified to an opinion. I'm quite positive that everyone has one, as well. The concern I have is watching some posters engage in the equivalent of consuming their young when it comes to class issues.
Q u o t e:
Tell me something. Why do other classes gain in one of our specifialized fields (damage), and gain greately at it, while we dont gain huge defensive or healing skills. Why are we stuck on going no where.
Tit-for-tat trade-offs are not an adequate resolution to something like this. That simply homogenizes all the classes. More to the point, scaling damage of melee classes has been addressed before and will likely be addressed again to deal with some of these massive crits casters are concerned with.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=457439&p=#post457690 |
Poster: Tseric at 10/20/2005 7:03:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: #1 Mage(caster) Problem THEY don't unders |
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Q u o t e:
Tseric not all 3 trees are equally viable for burst dps, which is supposed to be one of the mage's specialty right? I think that's the real problem right there. Imagine tryin to use Arcane tree for "burst" dps. Arcane Missiles....Hah.
Also a fire mage most likely does not have the ice talents to have good burst dps for frost. So what then? Maybe fire resists wouldn't have a problem if all 3 trees were more-or-less equally viable for "quick and explosive power" as the manual describes mages.
Frost gets less benefit from +dmg gear, does less than fire, AND only goes up to rank 10.
Arcane is even worse for burst DPS.
See what i'm saying? :)
Yes, I do. The comments I made above this regarding Arcane magic do not touch on this. However, that is not to say we are unaware of where damage comes from on the mage.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=457439&p=#post457699 |
Poster: Tseric at 10/20/2005 7:09:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: #1 Mage(caster) Problem THEY don't unders |
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Q u o t e:
That was a nice selective reply.
"When will the instances where melee talent trees will be shut down be implemented? "
Was not answered. I Honestly can't wait for you to address that one.
For your edification:
Countering melee damage would negate the single source of damage output melee classes have. That is nowhere near the same has having a resist to a single school of magic.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=457439&p=#post457719 |
Poster: Tseric at 10/20/2005 7:42:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: #1 Mage(caster) Problem THEY don't unders |
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Q u o t e:
I'm guessing that the CM's got told to come to the mage forums after so many of us quit the game due to lack of attention.
So, they come now. But instead of creating threads or responding to threads with helpful ideas, they start flame wars and insult anybody that does not agree with them.
I came here of my own volition.
I have outlined methods by which we are addressing these concerns.
Please do not forget that a review of the class will come, in addition to these other methods.
If you wish to harp on the incidentals of my comments, so be it. However, the meat of my position is there and will remain.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=457439&p=#post457834 |
Poster: Tseric at 10/20/2005 6:23:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: #1 Mage(caster) Problem THEY don't unders *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
And a main reason we are being dubbed "the complaining class" is because no one has a bunch of +shadow resistance yet or +nature resistance.
YES - Fire resistance is in ABUNDANCE for now...but look at the mages spells.
Only 4 of our MAIN spells are NON-FIRE.
Cone of Cold // Frostbolt // Arcane Explosion // Arcane Missiles.
Regardless if you play an Ice mage or not, YOU USE FIREBLAST/SCORCH if you are a good mage. You use Fire spells because that is nearly 70% of all the spells you have available. This is why the mages have stepped forward first regarding resist rates. Our main damage tree is nearly wiped clean from resistances and there is nothing you can do.
What you have is three spell schools. If fire resists are a big issue, you do have other spells to use. Now a warlock, for example, has only 2 spell trees, shadow and fire. Shouldn't this affect the warlock more? Thats half of their schools being resisted. That's all of the AoE they have subject to resists.
The reason mages stepped forward first is because Fire-spec'ed mages in a PvP environment are affected the most. This specific illustration of the issue then bled over into arguements of how many fire-based dungeons there are and how this affects the overall direction of the class, many things thrown in to merely stir the pot. While there is merit to the original concern, it has been diluted with hyperbole to exaggerate severity and garner support from the forums.
What I'm seeing is, as this topic is discussed more, there are more qualifying factors being added. Lower level mages aren't qualified to comment (get to 60, noob). Pre-MC/Onyxia 60s aren't qualified to comment (Tier-2/Rank 14 gear has more FR, noob). non-hardcore PvPers aren't qualified to comment (try BGs at my level/rank, noob). The people who are "qualified" to really understand this issue grow smaller and more select by the day, yet this issue is touted as crippling the mage class as a whole. That doesn't really add up for me.
However, just for clarity on our stance...
-Itemization continues to be worked on with this issue in mind.
-A single talent tree is going to have advantages and disadvantages in the transition from PvE to PvP. One tree will not "own" in all respects.
-Other 20 and 40 man content will come, allowing fire magic more "center-stage" presence/necessity. Along with this, fire-resist gear is deemphasized as other resistances will have increasing demand.
EDIT- spelling[ post edited by Tseric ]
Do you see the forest or the trees?
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=457439&p=#post457589 |
Poster: Tseric at 10/20/2005 7:00:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: #1 Mage(caster) Problem THEY don't unders *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
I dont expect a reply to this, as CMs tend to respond with rather ignorant comments and never again.
Guess you got me all figured out, eh?
Q u o t e:
The arcane damage spell (arcane missiles) suchs in general, especially for PVP. Thus, leaving us with two trees. If you're even thinking about using IAE, then, well, you should quit your mage (if you even have one) completely.
This kind of selective judgement happens all the time. You are basing the validity of a whole school on one spell. This is taking your other arcane spells for granted. Blink, Evocation, Polymorph, Mana shield. All of these can have an application in PvP.
Q u o t e:
Anyone over level 60 is qualified to an opinion, as we got absolutely no where in terms of progress while other classes (warriors at the most extreme) skyrocket at 60. I do see the arguements you've suggested, but they're made by the... well, I wont go into that.
Everyone is qualified to an opinion. I'm quite positive that everyone has one, as well. The concern I have is watching some posters engage in the equivalent of consuming their young when it comes to class issues.
Q u o t e:
Tell me something. Why do other classes gain in one of our specifialized fields (damage), and gain greately at it, while we dont gain huge defensive or healing skills. Why are we stuck on going no where.
Tit-for-tat trade-offs are not an adequate resolution to something like this. That simply homogenizes all the classes. More to the point, scaling damage of melee classes has been addressed before and will likely be addressed again to deal with some of these massive crits casters are concerned with.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=457439&p=#post457690 |
Poster: Tseric at 10/20/2005 7:03:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: #1 Mage(caster) Problem THEY don't unders *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Tseric not all 3 trees are equally viable for burst dps, which is supposed to be one of the mage's specialty right? I think that's the real problem right there. Imagine tryin to use Arcane tree for "burst" dps. Arcane Missiles....Hah.
Also a fire mage most likely does not have the ice talents to have good burst dps for frost. So what then? Maybe fire resists wouldn't have a problem if all 3 trees were more-or-less equally viable for "quick and explosive power" as the manual describes mages.
Frost gets less benefit from +dmg gear, does less than fire, AND only goes up to rank 10.
Arcane is even worse for burst DPS.
See what i'm saying? :)
Yes, I do. The comments I made above this regarding Arcane magic do not touch on this. However, that is not to say we are unaware of where damage comes from on the mage.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=457439&p=#post457699 |
Poster: Tseric at 10/20/2005 7:09:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: #1 Mage(caster) Problem THEY don't unders *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
That was a nice selective reply.
"When will the instances where melee talent trees will be shut down be implemented? "
Was not answered. I Honestly can't wait for you to address that one.
For your edification:
Countering melee damage would negate the single source of damage output melee classes have. That is nowhere near the same has having a resist to a single school of magic.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=457439&p=#post457719 |
Poster: Tseric at 10/20/2005 7:42:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: #1 Mage(caster) Problem THEY don't unders *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
I'm guessing that the CM's got told to come to the mage forums after so many of us quit the game due to lack of attention.
So, they come now. But instead of creating threads or responding to threads with helpful ideas, they start flame wars and insult anybody that does not agree with them.
I came here of my own volition.
I have outlined methods by which we are addressing these concerns.
Please do not forget that a review of the class will come, in addition to these other methods.
If you wish to harp on the incidentals of my comments, so be it. However, the meat of my position is there and will remain.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=457439&p=#post457834 |
