Poster: Oldjenkins at 8/3/2006 8:51:53 AM PDT
Subject: WoW is not a democracy, its a game. |
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Title says it all.
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Poster: Nethaera at 8/3/2006 9:14:24 AM PDT
Subject: Re: WoW is not a democracy, its a game. |
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Q u o t e:
But votes/polls are a good way to get a good idea of what the community wants. Sure, they may not listen or tally the results, but it's still a way for people to voice their opinions.
Actually votes and polls are not a good way to get a good idea of what the community wants since they can easily be skewed. It comes down to participation and how many people actually would versus how many people wouldn't know the poll even exists or just don't like participating in polls. They are often also easily manipulated by people that campaign for more votes for their selection to come in etc.
We do take into consideration what people say both via the forums and feedback we get and it essentually comes down to the development team using their best judgement to take that feedback into account and take in the overall 'good' of the game into account and do what's best. Not everyone will always agree with this.
Think of it this way. With (I think the last number was) 6.5 million subscriptions or so, we get the full spectrum of people that want different things from the game. We get everyone from the hardcore PvPer to the PvEr who never wants to PvP, the Raider to the Casual and everything in between. That's a lot of people to try to find a middle ground with as well as still maintain a perpsective on what works best for the game itself and fits the design philosophies of it.
This is no small task and it's something no other MMO has had to face as of yet. Attempting to take polls and find that middle ground would be a monumental task with all the added issues that polls have from what I stated above.
The fastest way to a man's heart is through his back.
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Poster: Nethaera at 8/3/2006 9:31:41 AM PDT
Subject: Re: WoW is not a democracy, its a game. |
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Q u o t e:
Another problem with polls is all you're going to get from them are the most watered-down, simplest choice. All the interesting, dynamic responses will be rare, and thus not be taken into account when polls are conducted.
So, yes, polls are a fun way to let people think they're doing anything productive, but look at it this way: We've voted for HOW many American Idols so far? And only one(the very first one, Kelly Clarkson) is showing any kind of success yet...
Thank you Tarsus. Well said.
The fastest way to a man's heart is through his back.
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Poster: Nethaera at 8/3/2006 9:38:55 AM PDT
Subject: Re: WoW is not a democracy, its a game. |
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Q u o t e:
c) a lot of whinning nowadays stems from the fact that players don't feel like they're listened to anyways
I actually think that you're just off the mark on this statement. Despite our attempts to assure people that we are reading and carrying on feedback, people still don't believe us. The reason they don't is because they feel that listening = agreeing with. People keep saying they want us to listen but that's not what they really want. They want us to listen, agree and then make the changes they want. If we listen but don't agree or don't make the changes they want, it gets put down as 'not listening' from their perspective.
The other issue with polls is that it gives people the wrong impression that it would have any influence on design and that it's not just a means of feedback. We don't want to give that impression. We want people to understand that yes, we are listening and yes, we want players to be happy. But ultimately, the only people that make the decisions on the game design is the development team.
The fastest way to a man's heart is through his back.
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Poster: Tseric at 8/3/2006 9:47:10 AM PDT
Subject: Re: WoW is not a democracy, its a game. |
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Q u o t e:
Doesn't it make more logical sense to have an idea as to how successful something will be BEFORE you put it in rather than waste development time on something that might flop?
No it doesn't. Player behavior is a lot different than player opinion. What someone thinks can vary greatly from what they actually do.
I guess my point is: play testing > polling
Q u o t e:
Yeah they have a lot of statistics available to them, afterall they run the servers themselves... but can they magically know what each player would like to see more of based on what they're doing now?
I want a crafting system by which I can make the best weapon in the game. Someone else wants a crafting system to make the worst weapon in the game. Tell me, what purpose would be served trying to poll individual fantasies and desires?
Any poll would have to be grounded in what could potentially occur. What could potentially occur is usually built off of what is already in game.
Example: players feedback on winged dungeons led towards development of more winged dungeons.
What would honestly serve that purpose better? A general question answered in a yes/no or multiple choice format or actual written opinions on the forum?
Ack, I'm in another polling thread...[ post edited by Tseric ]
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
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Poster: Nethaera at 8/3/2006 9:59:31 AM PDT
Subject: Re: WoW is not a democracy, its a game. |
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Q u o t e:
Ack, I'm in another polling thread...
I'll cover while you make your escape!
Hey guys! Look over there!
The fastest way to a man's heart is through his back.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9353674&p=#post9354981 |
Poster: Nethaera at 8/3/2006 10:17:10 AM PDT
Subject: Re: WoW is not a democracy, its a game. |
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Q u o t e:
This is why there are Community Managers. They are there(or should be there) to facilitate feedback then compile the input from the community so the community knows that their concerns are being at least known.
But WoW does not have a very good system for this. Other MOGS I have played; there was alawys someone in the class forums compiling information and requesting feedback from teh community before they submited the concerns for the class to the devs. Not everything was always addressed, but teh community at least knew what was going on and why.
We collect the information but you need to understand that what other MMOs do doesn't necessarily mean it's what would work best for us nor what we do would work for them. WoW has a much larger memberbase than anyone else has had before. There are vast amounts of information on many forums and we do our best to get the most important information we have at a particular time out to people as well as we can.
Some will disagree that we are but in order to see the big picture you'd have to be standing on our end of things. We've been on your end of things and are gamers ourselves. We wouldn't be here if we weren't. People can say we've lost touch, but I think that would be a wrong assumption. We are gamers that have been able to see THIS side and match it up with the gamer side and see the bigger picture that comes of it.
As you can see by this thread, I could explain things until I was blue in the face but someone will always find fault or twist things to read how they want it to. The discussion could go on indefinitely.
I would love to be more one on one with people but the sheer volume of posts just doesn't make that possible and the only way to be that way is to be at things like Comic-Con where I can look people in the eye. People can then hear the tone of my voice, ask questions in a free-flowing manner and I can answer with only having to answer them and maybe one or two others involved in the conversation versus hundreds in a conversation. ;)
The fastest way to a man's heart is through his back.
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Poster: Tseric at 8/3/2006 10:23:22 AM PDT
Subject: Re: WoW is not a democracy, its a game. |
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Q u o t e:
Face-to-face? But I'm not smart enough to twist all your words against you on the spot! I need a few minutes to read! How can I be all angst-driven and disgruntled in front of you? You might have a serious tone of voice and make me feel like you're smarter than me.
NO thanks! I'm just going to stay on the forums and criticize you from here.
Oh, and btw, no more telling me about this whole "other side" of things. We all know there's only one side, okay?
Sure you don't want to come to GenCon and we can discuss this there? ;)
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
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Poster: Nethaera at 8/3/2006 10:29:51 AM PDT
Subject: Re: WoW is not a democracy, its a game. |
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Q u o t e:
Neth, are you saying that the decision to keep PVP honor handling the way it is, is because Blizzard thinks it is acceptable to require 24 hour-a-day playtime in order to obtain the higher ranks?
Honestly, even, "No, we won't be doing XY, and here is roughly why." posts would be tremendous. At least then we'd know that we'll have to forevermore forsake things like life in order to progress in PVP matters for substandard reawards.
Actually Psyd, if you've read some other posts of mine, there is change coming in 1.12 as far as the honor curve being adjusted as a start. Also, there has been some discussion of changing the Honor system for the expansion (at the same time of) however, as I've stated before, I don't know what inparticular is being changed or how so until I have real information, I don't feel comfortable discussing it too much.
I have also mentioned before that there would be some possible change to DKs. It is something they are going to evaluate and test but are not promising they are just going to remove them or make changes as of yet. If they do, it will also be at the same time as the expansion.
Also of note is that these changes being a part of the 'core' game will apply to everyone.
The fastest way to a man's heart is through his back.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9353674&p=#post9355453 |
Poster: Tseric at 8/3/2006 10:31:17 AM PDT
Subject: Re: WoW is not a democracy, its a game. |
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Q u o t e:
Can I bring index cards to remember what I'm going to say?
Flash Cards
So we can make a game of guessing what you mean! :D
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
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Poster: Nethaera at 8/3/2006 11:07:07 AM PDT
Subject: Re: WoW is not a democracy, its a game. |
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Q u o t e:
Neth I'll just say thank you for actually responding, and doing so in a patient and attentive manner. Ultimately I see some of your points, that being that some players will never be happy, etc. This is a given. All I'm saying is, in my humble opinion, if I were in your shoes I'd want to get to know my customers as much as I could in an attempt to prolong our relationship as much as possible. You say polls don't help with this, I ask how they hurt? Thats really ALL I'm asking... but at this point we've already argued ourselvse in circles a handful of times and I don't have the time or the energy to continue banging my head against a brick wall. Just understand that I say the things I say not because I hate the game but because I love it and nowadays there is an unidentifiable feeling that the Blizzard I once felt very close to, the Blizzard that once felt very approachable FEELS like its behind a tinted glass wall. I'm not saying you all are purposefully doing it, but thats how it feels. So when i come here trying to the best of my ability to brainstorm a way to eradicate this perception it's as much for your benefit as mine.
Thank you for the well worded and polite response Bernil. If more people would learn not to add in personal attacks into their posts, we might feel more comfortable responding to them. :)
I actually stated in a prior post on here why we just don't like polls.
Polls started by players don't generally give us the information we might need at a particular time.
Polls we would do would make people believe that we are going to affect a change based on that feedback. We don't like to give false impressions of something when we can just use multiple methods of gathering feedback and put them all together in a way that doesn't cause us to have to bring out the riot gear because someone has gotten upset and brought an army of angst to the forum.
It comes down to the fact that with so many people and so many ideas, we will never make everyone happy and there will always be someone that is going to get upset with what we do. On the forums, some issues can look far more pronounced than they really are and some issues can be a bit underplayed depending on who is on the forums on any given day. We have some experience in picking those things out and sorting them while also having the reasoning behind it as posted by the players. A poll won't tell you WHY someone feels a certain way.
I'd rather know the why of something than the something without the why. It gives me reasons to tell the developers vs 'Players all want x'. When the developers ask why or anyone else on the team asks why, we can answer it.
The fastest way to a man's heart is through his back.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9353674&p=#post9356018 |
Poster: Nethaera at 8/3/2006 11:51:06 AM PDT
Subject: Re: WoW is not a democracy, its a game. |
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Q u o t e:
Thanks again Neth, I totally understand what you're saying. If I may ask however, why then do you guys bother with random email surveys? Drysc mentioned such a thing in another thread on this topic and I would think these too would be subject to the possibility of creating that same illusion.
I haven't seen the surveys but I'm going to assume that they bridge out beyond just the scope of gameplay and more into the realm of statistics about who the player base is and their satisfaction with customer service among other things. I would think it is a tool more for marketing than for development in that case but there are many avenues of information that we utilize for many different reasons.
Also, just as an aside about the pop-up poll, many people just don't like pop-ups period as evidenced by pop-up blockers on the web. I can imagine we'd get plenty of angry feedback about them.
The fastest way to a man's heart is through his back.
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Poster: Tseric at 8/4/2006 10:24:37 AM PDT
Subject: Re: WoW is not a democracy, its a game. |
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Q u o t e:
As such there is no reason that reasonable ideas from the forums be given equal weight when considering game updates.
Actually, there is. This is because the idea expressed in a post has its own merit. It does not need to be attributed to a single person or a group of people, but exists because of its own veracity. It doesn't matter who said it, but that it was said in an understandable fashion that works within context.
Example: Yesterday I posted a 1.12 patch note about Life Tap in the Warlock forum. Prior to this, there had been various debates as to whether Life Tap causes aggro.
I had made the post to spurn feedback about the change and other Blizz folks were watching this. In the thread, the debate bubbled up again. It was then discovered that a bug existed on the PTRs and that threat was being generated on the PTRs. It was tested and resolved before 1.12 went live.
This is a tangible result of how ideas exist independent of any one person and how a collective can contribute tangible results to the growth of this game.
The forums are open to anyone to submit these ideas and provide this kind of tangible assistance and cooperation.
Polling can not provide this interaction, so I submit to you that polling is in fact more impersonal and less practical than these forums.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
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