Poster: Yaki at 8/2/2006 8:20:41 AM PDT
Subject: A REAL Rogue Question: Disarm Traps |
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Detect Traps became a passive skill in 1.11, but really, what's the use? We don't ever NEED to detect traps, except for, y'know, that whole Ravenholdt quest.
Speaking of, I distinctly remember being promised more "oppertunities" at the Assassin's League after completing my initiation. And the only other said oppertunity was a Pulp Fiction re-enactment.
So what's up, Blizzard? What happened to all the traps in the game? What happened to the Rogue quests? I'd like to have more utility and purpose than to just slice faces off with my 1337 DPS.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9335981&p=#post9335981 |
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Poster: Nethaera at 8/2/2006 8:30:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: A REAL Rogue Question: Disarm Traps |
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Have you been in Black Wing Lair? Lots of traps there to work on.
Keep in mind there are some things to consider when putting in traps. Like any class specific ability, the developers put them in because they want people to be able to use them. These types of things make classes unique and fun for many people. However, by putting in things that require specific classes to be a part of a group, it adds an extra element of difficulty for some groups. It's looked at from two different angles.
Angle one is that by putting in class specific needs to an area, it makes that class important and wanted. This is a good thing.
Angle two is that by putting in class specific needs to an area it can potentially make it impossible for a group without that class to get through it.
At no point does the development team want to put in elements that make it impossible for people to get through without a certain class, however they do still want to implement ways in which classes are wanted and needed.
It's a very fine line and a balancing act.
That said, with the new expansion pack coming out, I wouldn't be surprised to see some new elements added in in which you may very well get the opportunity to use your class specific skills for. I don't know of anything inparticular since I don't know the details of what all is in the dungeons, but I can base it on my own best understandings.
I think I'm almost afraid to know what all is going to be in the dungeons at this point because we all know how strong the WoW addiction can be. I already forsee many sleepless nights of "I'll just finish this one thing" or "Let's just kill this last boss here and then stop for the night" to occur. I am looking forward to it though. ;)
The fastest way to a man's heart is through his back.
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Poster: Nethaera at 8/2/2006 8:54:53 AM PDT
Subject: Re: A REAL Rogue Question: Disarm Traps |
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Q u o t e:
That's hilarious that you say this. I seem to remember hearing from you guys that one reason why you were doing the Pally/Shaman class switch was so you could make encounters that required those classes without making it impossible for one faction or the other.
Yeah I figured that was BS too.
You're certainly more then willing to use that excuse to explain such a stupid desicion, but should rogues ask for more utility you come back with "don't want to make any single class mandatory" crap.
Hypocracy for the win, eh?
Kyirah, you are misunderstanding. They want to add elements that make classes wanted and needed. They however, need to still be careful how they do it. They do not want to make it impossible without those classes and yet, would like to make it easier WITH those classes.
Much like someone pointing out Stratholme. The quick way would be for a rogue to disarm a trap. The long way requires more time and more mobs to kill which is a higher risk. By having a rogue, players are able to progress quicker and 'safer' relatively speaking than they would without one.
You're trying to create an issue where there is none in this case. There is every intention to create ways of classes being desired and useful in groups BUT, at the same time, making it impossible for a group to progress because they can't find someone of that class is somewhat defeatest to players at the same time.
The fastest way to a man's heart is through his back.
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Poster: Nethaera at 8/2/2006 10:15:49 AM PDT
Subject: Re: A REAL Rogue Question: Disarm Traps |
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Kyirah,
There is a reason for the doublespeak on our part (or at least on my part). I can't positively say WHAT is in store for particular classes. I don't know yet myself. I do know what the intent is and the reasoning behind the caution. Of course there are things that are designed for groups and multiple class abilities to be used together for the good of the group.
Yes, I know the arguments about rogues wanting their own unique utility in those groups. I understand it. I happen to love the rogue class and have played many games in which the arguments for more rogue utility have been relatively the same. None of these arguments are new to me. I've taken part in them in one capacity or another. I also understand the flip side of the coin as well. Rogues in general have always been one of those classes that tend to have a lot of debate surrounding them. What seems logical for a rogue to do is 'overpowered' to someone else. Overall though, I trust the developers to do their best to continue to work on class balancing and advancements to all the classes to their best of their ability.
It's easy to say 'we need x' when you've played a particular class for a long while and are devoted to it. It's much more difficult to take a look at the overall picture and see the plusses and minuses of all the possible changes and do what's best based on those.
The fastest way to a man's heart is through his back.
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Poster: Nethaera at 8/2/2006 10:27:04 AM PDT
Subject: Re: A REAL Rogue Question: Disarm Traps |
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Q u o t e:
I think alot of us are comparing modern WoW Rogues to old-school DnD Thiefs.
The encounters for the most part until AQ 40 is basically hack and slash.
The dungeons are not randomized and do not have alternate routes and such to go. If five man instances would have a somewhat randomized map and several traps, locked doors, and puzzling content to them, I would never do 40 man raids (Regardless of loot).
I think there is a common misconception when a new player creates a rogue and thinks of above mentioned ideals that do not exist in WoW.
I think you're right Steelclash. People that grew up loving pen and paper rogues tend to look for those same sort of adventures and feelings in MMOs. I think WoW rogues have come farther and is closer to the rogue 'ideal' than any others I've experienced but there is a big difference between what you can do in a pen and paper game vs an MMO.
The fastest way to a man's heart is through his back.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9335981&p=#post9338420 |
Poster: Nethaera at 8/2/2006 10:39:29 AM PDT
Subject: Re: A REAL Rogue Question: Disarm Traps |
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Q u o t e:
Horde side we can't do Chromaggus without priests either, no other class can dispell blue.
So, I'm thinking a lot of these CMs are still stuck on Ragnaros or something.
And one encounter in AQ20 requires more high DPS/non mana users (rogues) than it does mana users like mages doing dps. ;)
No, I'm not stuck on Ragnaros. He was on 'farm' status but thanks.
People are still missing what I'm saying. Encounters are created with a balance of classes in mind, this includes the abilities of those classes. However, they are in general not created to be impossible for people to do without the 'perfect' mix of classes though of course having that 'perfect' mix is certainly going to make things go a bit easier. I've heard of some pretty crazy mixes of classes and even full raids of just one class pull off some things that people once said was impossible. ;)
There is a certain feeling of extremism people are exuding when responding to what I'm saying. People are looking at the black and white rather than the gray in between and we're getting a bit off point.
The short is that yes, all classes and their abilities are taken into account when designing encounters.
Yes, some encounters are created in which having a certain class would be a very very good idea if you want to do it without a large deathtoll.
Yes, there is an intention to continue to create encounters that will utilize the strengths of certain classes in various ways.
Yes, there are considerations in doing that in which the developers are very conscientous of. They do not want to overbalance encounters and want to keep them fun, interesting and challenging at the same time.
The fastest way to a man's heart is through his back.
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Poster: Nethaera at 8/2/2006 10:51:47 AM PDT
Subject: Re: A REAL Rogue Question: Disarm Traps |
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Q u o t e:
Currently, there is not a single 5 or 10 man dungeon that requires a specific class to be there. That should always be the case.
Yes, this is definetly more along the lines I'm referring to.
When you start getting into the upper end raids, you start needing people of a certain class however, there is nothing that dictates you must have a certain number of a class though it probably helps to have them to make it a little less painful. That doesn't preclude some very careful planning still on how the encounters need to work and what skills and classes should probably be there.
The fastest way to a man's heart is through his back.
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