Poster: Height at 2/7/2006 3:11:35 PM PST
Subject: Attn Tseric: Itemization in General |
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I note this to Tseric's attention because we once had a fun conversation on class design in the Warrior forums. Although it proved to be just a one-night-stand, it was still good convo so maybe Tseric or another CM would like to elaborate Blizzard's view of the issues discussed herein.
As I have leveled up this far in WoW, I have generally been pleased with the itemization of the game. This is, let's say, up through 50, and onto about 55 where my radar kind of ends. Throughout this level range, 1 - 55, I'm impressed with how polished the game's itemization is. Specifically, things I have noted and appreciate:
(1) The balance between quest rewards, instance drops, rare world drops, and crafted gear: I find the game has organized much of its items, at least from the Warrior point of view, in 10-level bands. It is relevant to look at items in the 20-29, 30-39, and 40-49 range, for instance, and you will notice some things that the gear in each band has in common. I cannot articulate it, but you can see the apparent tradeoffs in each of these bands.
a) Quest rewards, while sometimes very nice, are not often cutting edge. This makes sense, as quests are, relatively speaking, the easiest safest most consistent way to get an item.
b) Instances are generally an inexpensive means of improving ones gear. However, no one instance is a "buck stops here" 1-stop upgrade. Each one may offer very tempting items in a particular slot for a particular class, but you could not completely optimize your gear through instances alone.
c) Tradeskilled items are available to fill in gaps, and in some cases (for instance a warrior who has just turned 40), are available at a relatively low level for their band. Thus they offer an alternative to item farming in instances; someone with a moderate amount of gold saved can round themselves out with tradeskilled gear. There will almost certainly be several (majority) of slots for which there is a far better alternative for those willing to pursue it. But tradeskilled armor, for instance, typically has at least 1 or 2 pieces in each of these 10-level bands that will be very appealing.
d) Rare world drops are just that: rare. Thanks to the Auction system, these items can be distributed amongst the player base using a traditional supply/demand model to determine relative value. Many of the game's purple items in the 1-55 range can only be found as rare, random world drops. These items are necessary to achieve a truly cutting edge equipment package, and getting them will require a great deal of luck, or respectable income-generating to purchase.
(2) With regard to weapons, upgrades are not required so frequently that they become a burden, but are available frequently enough so that one's weaponry need not stagnate. Throughout the level 1-55 range, tradeoffs exist in weaponry. A few points of a stat, or a few points of DPS are actually large differences that require careful consideration. Particularly with one-handers I perceive a very gradual / incremental improvement in their overall dps and stat benefit. There is something of a curved progression, as with armor, where gear begins to level out in the 50-56 range.
My question for discussion is as follows: Why does the design philosophy I have observed above change so radically at level 60? For instance, here is a sorted Thottbot table:
http://www.thottbot.com/?f=w;skill=Axe;name=;loc=Two-Hand;quality=2;quality=3;quality=4;quality=5;minrl=30;maxrl=60;minl=;maxl=;mind=;maxd=;mins=;maxs=;stat1=;c1=gt;v1=;stat2=;c2=gt;v2=;stat3=;c3=gt;v3=;e=;sort=dps
Notice the steady and incremental DPS progression up to and including the Arcanite Reaper. You are inching your way up to the 50 dps mark, and manage to just get past it. A few very rare weapons will take you into the high 50's. OK. But look what happens next? Suddenly we move by leaps and bounds into radically higher numbers, like 75 dps.
This point becomes even more vivid if I include items other than just axes. It's as if the game's itemization suddenly explodes in an orgasm, with weapons rocketing upwards at an unprecidented pace.
My question is: why?
Let us also look at the distribution of these weapons, at 60. The previous distribution balance of quested items, tradeskilled items, world drops, and instance loot is utterly demolished. Suddenly the game becomes: instance loot or bust.
Again my question is: why?
A question specific to my class that I ask is: how would it even be possible to balance a class when you must take into account the possibility of two level 60 characters, both warriors, differing so radically in their damage output? Which does Blizzard choose to balance their game around? Do they allow epic level 60 warriors to be vastly overpowered, or do they allow "normal" 1-60 warriors to be vastly underpowered?
The statistical progression of a character from 1 to 60 is fairly linear. The talent progression of a character is in many cases a curve of diminshing returns, where the last few talents invested are more of a "finishing touch" than a character-altering facet. The rest of the game seems to support this idea of "finishing touches". But the itemization is dead opposite of that. The itemization radically departs and escalates at level 60, with extremes that seem to make no sense.
Another question I have is: how much of the debate with pvp class balance issues really stems from itemization issues?
I am putting my claim out for Blizzard and others to discuss: I believe itemization in WoW got very sloppy with regards to content added after the game's first few months. I believe this "fast and lose" approach to itemization, under the guise of providing a carrot to endure all these time sinks, does a lot of damage to the game. I believe this problem gets worse with each patch. I EVEN believe this problem is at the core of the so-called casual v. raider debate. In other words I do not think that debate would be so fierce and so prolonged if it were not for this leaps-and-bounds itemization we see at endgame.
In conclusion, my question for Tseric, Tigole or other WoW-folk is: why?
Constructive suggestions:
What if items were nerfed and classes were boosted? Would that not be the ultimate "casual-friendly" improvement?
If raiders enjoy raiding, why couldn't the very best, bleeding edge epic drops be along the lines of finishing touches and not world-demolishing nuclear weapons?
Many posters have talked about Blizzard "losing its way." I believe it is specifically with itemization that this observation is most valid.
South of Heaven
http://sohguild.org/
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=7015898&p=#post7015898 | | | Poster: Tseric at 2/9/2006 5:12:54 PM PST
Subject: Re: Attn Tseric: Itemization in General |
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Q u o t e:
(1) The balance between quest rewards, instance drops, rare world drops, and crafted gear: I find the game has organized much of its items, at least from the Warrior point of view, in 10-level bands. It is relevant to look at items in the 20-29, 30-39, and 40-49 range, for instance, and you will notice some things that the gear in each band has in common. I cannot articulate it, but you can see the apparent tradeoffs in each of these bands.
a) Quest rewards, while sometimes very nice, are not often cutting edge. This makes sense, as quests are, relatively speaking, the easiest safest most consistent way to get an item.
b) Instances are generally an inexpensive means of improving ones gear. However, no one instance is a "buck stops here" 1-stop upgrade. Each one may offer very tempting items in a particular slot for a particular class, but you could not completely optimize your gear through instances alone.
c) Tradeskilled items are available to fill in gaps, and in some cases (for instance a warrior who has just turned 40), are available at a relatively low level for their band. Thus they offer an alternative to item farming in instances; someone with a moderate amount of gold saved can round themselves out with tradeskilled gear. There will almost certainly be several (majority) of slots for which there is a far better alternative for those willing to pursue it. But tradeskilled armor, for instance, typically has at least 1 or 2 pieces in each of these 10-level bands that will be very appealing.
d) Rare world drops are just that: rare. Thanks to the Auction system, these items can be distributed amongst the player base using a traditional supply/demand model to determine relative value. Many of the game's purple items in the 1-55 range can only be found as rare, random world drops. These items are necessary to achieve a truly cutting edge equipment package, and getting them will require a great deal of luck, or respectable income-generating to purchase.
The "banding" you refer to could be indicative of the item budgeting used by the designers. Effectively, a certain level range of weapon (not player)is allotted a number of points which are then spent on various attributes given a certain cost. Some attributes, like random stat "of the Boar"-type stuff cost lest than Proc effects or what have you.
Q u o t e:
My question for discussion is as follows: Why does the design philosophy I have observed above change so radically at level 60?
It doesn't, really. The primary changes are the fact that players have hit level cap, but the real level range of items continues to progress. Consider that an epic item has a level requirement of 60, but that does not reflect the level of the actual item. In your link, you might want to try sorting the items by level first, then by DPS. Measuring this solely by DPS excludes a number of other elements.
Q u o t e:
Let us also look at the distribution of these weapons, at 60. The previous distribution balance of quested items, tradeskilled items, world drops, and instance loot is utterly demolished. Suddenly the game becomes: instance loot or bust.
Again my question is: why?
Questing should be fairly obvious. Tradeskill items, due to player generated nature, must be keep at a certain level to avoid saturation. Anyone recall the old Arcanite Reaper? It exceeded some epics in the game and it was practically a rite of passage for a warrior to have one crafted. Rare world drops were not designed as the "ultimate grind", but rather as a lottery chance, not to be depended on or expected.
You are neglecting to mention other sources such as PvP rewards or Faction rewards, both of which continue to receive attention and additions.
Q u o t e:
A question specific to my class that I ask is: how would it even be possible to balance a class when you must take into account the possibility of two level 60 characters, both warriors, differing so radically in their damage output? Which does Blizzard choose to balance their game around? Do they allow epic level 60 warriors to be vastly overpowered, or do they allow "normal" 1-60 warriors to be vastly underpowered?
Because class and game balance is measured by more than simply damage output. The damage curve for warriors 1-60 is actually more dramatic than other classes, but 60+ sees a comparable curve with other classes. So...I can't really answer that question as you phrased it. Suffice to say, end-game balance is different than mid-game balance for reasons beyond itemization.
Q u o t e:
The talent progression of a character is in many cases a curve of diminshing returns, where the last few talents invested are more of a "finishing touch" than a character-altering facet.
Not sure if I agree with you here. Would you consider Mortal Strike to be a "finishing touch"? Seems to me like many have built characters around this ability. I think I see what you mean with regard to talent value and how some may "cost" more but not necessarily be better. However, it is a completely different mechanic than stat progression or itemization, so why shouldn't it work differently?
Q u o t e:
Another question I have is: how much of the debate with pvp class balance issues really stems from itemization issues?
I don't doubt that it can make a difference and does contribute. I also know that PvP competition can get players arguing about the price of tea in China and the color of the sky. To attribute it solely to itemization is a mis-step.
I would posit that the issue isn't so much the varied items, but that measurement of such differences doesn't occur with regards to BGs. But that is practically a whole other discussion and something that might be nice to avoid for the purposes of this conversation.
I mean no offense by this, Height, but some of your other comments are sort of generalizing and don't reflect actual elements, but rather a sense or feeling you get from them. Itemization as a whole is documented thoroughly to allow for planning and review. In fact we are dealing with a good deal of item review now in various dungeons. Some items may be tweaked or not touched at all. It is something of a perpetual process, but then again, so much is in an MMO.
Golden crispy! Bad guys are history!
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