Poster: Harharhar at 1/22/2006 1:14:27 PM PST
Subject: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gameplay |
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To start off with, I've leveled several 60 characters with friends and family. I've been all the way to Nefarion, slayed dragons, been Rank 12 on my other character, and been involved in virtually every 'world' event that this game has to sponsor.
Quoted from Garrett Fuller of MMORPG.com
"MMO means massive multiplayer online. Instances take the "MM" out of "MMO". 5-40 man raids (both PvE and BGs) can not compare to the excitement of interacting with literally hundreds or thousands of players at the same time. Instances are like the YMCA. Get kids off the streets into safe controlled activities so they can't get in trouble or cause trouble in their communities. It's a great concept for a real world community, but death to an online community."
I firmly believe that the eventual fall of World of Warcraft will be the lack of interactivity in this game. Let's say, for a moment, that we put together a large world-PVP raid, and begin trouncing all over Southshore, then Menethil, with the intentions of invading Ironforge. If we walk inside of Southshore, the only thing that really occurs is some Alliance defense might possibly show up, we'd be Guard zerged, and then eventually everyone would give up and go home. There is no lasting impression left from anything done in this game - and it will destroy it.
I've played in other MMORPGs, I was around UO when the storyline of Lord Britain came into fruition, I had friends that played Eve when one of the largest Corporations in that game was obliterated into nothingness because of a very successful storyline mixed with sabotage and intelligence.
What are we given in World of Warcraft?
Another opportunity to go grind 50,000 shells so that we can open a gate to go to another carefree zone. The irony is that Blizzard has often times resorted to making the excuse, "Well, we have a huge player base!" Yeah, so does Lineage 2, and over 50% of those players are gold-selling farmers.
I've seen Caydiem ramble on and on continuously about why World events can't be instituted, the issue here is that the player-base of World of Warcraft is soft, and you can't really even blame that on the players themselves - you make the Developers take responsibility for how they percieved the community as a whole.
It is not the belief of this author that one character should have an immediate impact on everything within the game - but that a large group of players should be able to decide which way certain points of interaction occur. This is a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game - not a Carebear fest filled with developers who would rather assist one half of the community and not the other.
This game is far too easy, there isn't a penalty for death, there is no real danger of anything from the outside world. Where the real issue lies is that you can't assist in anyway to move the World of Warcraft the way you feel it should go - or the way the players want to.
Contested zones are a joke - there isn't anything contested about them except for changing the color of your name out-line. There are no lasting impressions in these so-called contested zones, so what's the point of them even existing? Oh no, I have to walk back to my body again.
Ironically, I've discovered that Blizzard doesn't really care about the hardcore gamers of its player-base, because those of us that hail from different MMO's chose this one because Chris Metzen had his hand in it - and now, all of that trust some of us once had for this man is slowly declining. You don't want to give the players any control over the game because lore has already been predecided, unfortunately, the Lore itself is a waste of creative time. How many different things have been changed just to suit this world? Yet, you are incapable of giving us, the players, the ability to control a contested town, kill a world leader and have a lasting affect, have SOMETHING more interactive as opposed to a system designed for 12 year olds who get pissed when their 60 Night Elf Rogue dies.
While I'm quite certain this will go unnoticed as usual, I'd like to hear some feedback from Tseric or Caydiem - as to why you feed into this ridiculous concoction you call an MMORPG. You've taken the ability for players to make decisions out of their hands, and placed it into that of the developers. People who don't have time invested into the game itself, something they do as a job and nothing more - and while their abilities are respected, it doesn't mean they have any idea as to what their doing.
For all intensive purposes, I won't be hitting up the next grind-fest in AQ. I have no reason to grind for honor in the Battlegrounds, and can't really see why I've kept this game as long as I have.
If you don't believe the player base is declining, check out realm forums. See how many posts in the last two weeks have come from people who are not renewing subscriptions. An expansion won't save you, Blizzard, the only thing that will keep this game alive is to change the interactivity, lessen the amount of carebearism, and stop allowing the wants of the few outway that of the many.[ post edited by Harharhar ]
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6768908 | | | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 4:29:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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I'll happily discuss interactivity and lore with you, from the standpoint of someone that's created world events for other MMOs in the past. I've dwelled on the subject for years, and know well the arguments surrounding it. Be aware that I'm probably going to ramble, but I assure you, there's a point in here somewhere. ;)
Single player games set the standard: you are the Hero, and the world revolves around you. Fans of single-player RPGs get enthralled in this feeling -- I matter. The world responds to my every action. NPCs remember my dealings. The story progresses. Some of these games have a defined ending: the story comes to a close, the credits roll, and the experience is left to replays. Some of the more open-ended games allow you to continue playing after the main story is done, but you're left directionless; the story is no longer advancing. You can forge your own stories in this way (and believe me, I have) but the world no longer responds the way it used to, and the magic is often lost thereby.
The world of Azeroth has its story established in past games that, while they sported multiplayer, only developed lore in the single player game. You dance from Hero to Hero, exploring their story and their part in the grand tapestry that is the history of the world. The story progresses, and you see the world change from a variety of viewpoints. This is the typical Warcraft lore progression. We were behind the eyes of Lothar, of Grom, of Arthas, of Malfurion, of Illidan, of Sylvanas, of Thrall, of Jaina... we were the Heroes, and our actions changed the course of the future.
And then we come to World of Warcraft, a game that brings the lore of its predecessors with it but has the added burden of being an entirely different style of game. You're behind the Hero again, but... well... there are thousands of other Heroes out there with you. How can you allow players to feel that impact?
Diverging content is normally what is suggested in this case, but normally without due consideration. It's an extremely tricky thing to implement, technically and feasibly. To define it before I delve further, the term "diverging content" refers to storyline or other gameplay content differing from realm to realm.
It sounds great on paper -- what if the players could make a difference through their actions? What if the storyline started the same on all realms but was diverged further and further from realm to realm as time went on due to decisions made by the playerbase? Wouldn't that be phenomenal? Wouldn't that be epic?
Well, yes, it certainly sounds that way. But then the technicalities come in. Say world leaders could be permanently slain. With the way MMO players work, they are the equivalent of raid bosses; no matter how hard we make them, odds are their existence will be seen as a challenge, and they'll die. And then what? Do we install a new nameless Warchief? Do we name a player King, except without the responsibilities (since the griefing potential is huge)? When everyone is dead, how does this truly advance the world?
Moreover, the killing of significant NPCs in a permanent way can often result in content being cut off. While you may think this is a fine thing, or something that can easily be shifted to a different NPC, this is a QA nightmare. It's one thing to QA one version of content; it's quite another to play through every single possible combination of events.
But let's say it's not about killing world leaders. Let's leave that alone for a moment and argue basic theory: repeatable content vs. non-repeatable content. Repeatable content is what much of WoW is: quests (while not repeatable by the same character, they can be done by others), dungeons, Battlegrounds, and recurring World Events are all examples of repeatable content. This gives the player the most bang for their buck, and is the best use of development time. Non-repeatable content, such as some of the Ahn'Qiraj event, is fantastic once in a while -- but devoting massive amounts of development time to an event that will only occur once is poor planning. Having non-repeatable content cut others off from previously repeatable content is a worse idea.
Now, non-repeatable content is neat. It's that sort of thing that advances the storyline. However, in MMOs, where everyone's vying to be the Hero at once, it's difficult to implement without destroying at least some of what you've built, if you're trying to do it on a large scale. Addition-based non-repeatable content such as the Opening of the Gates in Silithus is probably the type of thing you're going to see more of -- sparingly. It's fantastic in feel. It gives the idea of changing the world through your actions... and that's why the AQ War Effort had so many facets. Maybe you can't raid with your character, but you can still contribute in a variety of ways and be rewarded for it. It targeted as broad a scope as we dared, and we feel it was largely successful in hitting the mark.
But back to the point -- advancing a storyline in an MMO is difficult, particularly if the lore wasn't built for an MMO in the beginning. In our case, there may well be a Warcraft 4. If so, where would we possibly pick up the story if each of our 130+ realms had a different world tale to tell? Is one realm's reality more valid than another?
We had a decision to make in this regard when we first brainstormed World of Warcraft. The question is this: how do you define the Hero in a game when there are thousands of people all dying to be one? The answer, in our case, is to allow others to forge their own stories using our basis, with occasional non-repeatable world events that hope to include as many people as possible. While world-changing events are awesome, being excluded from them -- or missing them -- is no fun (as can be evidenced by the number of people 1) who logged in to watch Medivh's opening despite not being from the realm, and 2) who are criticizing the event's length), and in general it's a less efficient use of development time.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6785537 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 4:48:17 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
Caydiem, do you consider outdoor raid bosses content accessible by everyone? Or just by the local Uber-guild that camps the spawn? Why are outdoor raid bosses not instanced, with a timer? Only a portion of any server population is able to enjoy the content; bosses like Onyxia are much more friendly towards those who actually need a few hours to assemble a 40 person crew to attempt to battle her.
Why aren't outdoor raid bosses like, say, Onyxia? Here's why:
1) Much less level design and art needed to deliver similar content.
2) A different sort of encounter design that relies less on placement.
In addition, I hardly see them as being just for the uberguilds, since on all realms I frequent, pick-up groups regularly down Kazzak and Azuregos. Eventually the four dragons will probably end up the same way, once the strategies are well-known.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6785791 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 4:50:54 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
Why can't we get replies like these more often?
Heh... this is a subject that I, personally, am both heavily experienced in and very passionate about. ;)
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6785813 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 4:59:49 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
You shouldn't have to install anything. The game world should respond based on entity motivations and relationships, just like the real world. Look at how deeply the assassination of JFK has affected, and is still effecting, the world as we know it.
I understand fully this depth of emergent behaviour isn't remotely possible with today's technology. But WoW hasn't breathed any life whatsoever into it's actors. They just... stand there.
The trick is to stop trying to write the story. Put an appropriate set of rules and controls into place, and flick the switch. Let players influence the world, and have the world respond. I promise the outcome will be far more compelling than the static experience currently on offer.
However, I also think that WoW is so heavily married to canon and the raiding mindset it will never be that MMO, not even in 5 years when this kind of game starts to emerge.
Again, this sort of thing is fantastic -- for a game that does not have a very defined IP. We not only have to keep in mind what's past but also what may come in the future. As I said, if ever it comes time to create Warcraft 4, we need a solid storyline to found it, and if all realms diverged, which is the most valid, or right?
What you mention is a great idea, don't get me wrong -- but it will succeed far better with a game that has a basis and history defined purely for that sort of emergent player-based telling. Warcraft was not crafted with that in mind.
As to the request to have a storyline...
We do, of sorts. We're working on fleshing out our World Event team, and there may be more things like Ahn'Qiraj in the future. Again, though, advancing a storyline requires non-repeatable content, and often cuts off content that was once repeatable. If given the choice, at this time, the developers would rather focus on repeatable content that everyone has the opportunity to enjoy at some point rather than something that will come once and never again.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6785916 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 5:07:39 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
Also i thought the NPC actions around the AQ quest line was an awesome effort. Now what would be cool, is seeing Thrall march on SW keep with an army to seige it. Gameing at its best, and the war continues with Alliance banding together to save there homeland. Horde ridding with their King at the head of the colum. Very cool stuff. ;)
Right, this is an excellent example.
Let's say this happens. What are the consequences during the march?
1) Thrall is unavailable to complete or give the eight quests he has attached to him, thus shutting off content for not only high level players, but the primary quest to seek out Ragefire Chasm for level 15ish players.
2) Wherever they are, it's gotten a lot more dangerous for Alliance. Meanwhile, Thrall is away from his player-chocked town, thus giving Alliance an easier shot at training him away and killing him for the honor.
Let's say he takes over Stormwind. New Human players are completely hosed. They have no way to get safely elsewhere, and quest progression will be significantly hampered. If someone first started playing World of Warcraft that day, had no prior experience, and went sidling up to the nice-looking Human town only to be utterly destroyed by Orc NPCs, do you think that's a fun experience? Odds are, with a lack of explanation, they'll get frustrated and leave.
What you suggest is certainly interesting for the level 60s who are looking for a change, but we need to consider everyone when making such world-changing events, not to mention the consequences surrounding such a thing.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6785977 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 5:10:41 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
Caydiem, first: Thank you for a very well constructed reply which addresses much of the concepts of 'world changing' events.
However, there is a type of change that I believe COULD be implemented eventually in WOW without causing permanent storyline brakage. Essentially this could be termed 'political change' in contested regions. Perhaps it would be a non-instanced version of Battlegrounds (an uber-Alterac Valley if you will). One or more less critical zones could be affected by the total reputation standings of each faction.... swaying the neutral goblins to be nicer to the leading faction. Prices are discounted if the FACTION is honored and conversely the lower ranked Faction has higher prices. A couple of towns (non-crucial and a little out of the way) provide flightpaths to Ratchet for the higher ranked faction (the goblins don't want trouble and always cater to the more powerful faction)...... simple or complex consequences that could change as a result of faction activity but which have the POSSIBILITY of going either way. This is a zero sum result in history, but affects local, server based world events that actually could be visible to the average player.
History is viewed on the grand scale, but players would like to see little changes that make it more believable and not quite so static... at least this player would. Any plans (as nebulous as you like to state) for anything even remotely like this any time soon?
I think I know what MMO you're referencing here, and I agree that it was one of the more interesting things for myself personally.
As far as whether or not something like this will exist? I don't know. However, I do know that during the talk of bringing back World PvP, there's been some hint of this. We'll see how things develop.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786004 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 5:17:01 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
But you're wrong! It doesn't have to be a one-off event that is player driven... it doesn't have to be big at all. ALL it requires is that NPCs respond differently when you have finished their stupid quest. Nathanos Blightcaller STILL calls me a weakling, even tho I cilled Rammstein AND the Oracle for him... where's the grudging respect I earned? Tirion has completely forgotten that I redeemed his son and got him killed. Shouldn't he either hate me or love me?
And then from time to time change the actual world. Yes, you will lose content... but give Tirion a whole new set of quests, where he vows to exterminate Scarlet Crusade scum of the earth and sends you on quests to help him establish his new order... yes, that means you can't redeem his son anymore, but seriously, it's getting kinda boring anyway. Put it in as a CGI script for new players if you really have to... and the major parts like Gnomeregan, etc. keep them! Open up the Caverns of Time before the expansion and add Gnomeregan as the new Gnome city... repeatable content still there AND the new Gnome city. Open up the echo isles at the same time, there's no content there anybody's going to miss anyway :P And if they do, well, can give the trolls new quests in their starting lands. Go kill tigers for their furs so we can skin m and put roofs on our houses! There's still a group of rebel trolls hiding out on blabla island, go and exterminate them! Etc. etc. etc.
Cheers,
Acro
Whoakay there... you started off reasonable, but you went into pie-in-the-sky territory pretty quickly.
Yes, I agree that more personal reactions are neat and fairly easy to do in general (I'm not 100% positive on how easy they are for our personal setup), but that's still a lot of conditional text to write if you spread it throughout the world.
But here's where it starts intruding into "That's what I said we're not doing and I already explained why" territory:
Q u o t e:
And then from time to time change the actual world. Yes, you will lose content... but give Tirion a whole new set of quests...
So what you want us to do is remove repeatable content and put in new repeatable content. That's fine, but what was wrong with the original repeatable content that it needs to be ditched? It bores you? Well, it might not bore the person who is progressing through them the first time. It's an awesome story; removing it deprives players of that story. I completely understand where you're coming from, and ideally this could easily take place... but realistically, we have a limited number of developers and a certain amount of time, and we want to make the most out of this time. Doing this would not be making the most out of said time.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786022 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 5:25:33 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
I have issues with this.
Is it a bad thing if players experience a slightly different quest progression than others based on quests taken/interactions (such as faction reputation) acquired/lost? If we're not placing any emphasis on any one player, is a static world really required (as far as quests and whatnot go)?
No, a static world isn't required, but here's the deal.
Developers have a limited amount of time, in perspective. Now, given the choice between:
1) adding repeatable content; or
2) replacing repeatable content
..which one makes more sense? From a common sense standpoint, it's number one. This gives more content for everyone in general, new AND old players, rather than giving old players additional content (since they've seen the old already) and just giving new players slightly different content.
We currently don't have the luxury to do both, and as such, we're doing the one that makes the most practical sense. I hope I'm being clear on this matter; on this subject more than any other I have a tendency to ramble.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786047 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 5:35:17 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
What's wrong with any of this, though? It's a temporary inconvenience for a greater good -- I'm nto by any means a "harcore" player and would be more than willing to be temporarily inconvenienced to see something as grand as this occur.
If Thrall left Orgrimmar, these things WOULD be results, and that's a great thing! It makes the world more dynamic than ever -- I don't think you're giving WoW's player base enough credit.
I have no problem with it either, as a player.
You and I, though, we're just one breed of player. There are other playstyles to consider.
Let's say someone can play for two hours a week. This is extreme, but it's an example. This player has been told by his friends to start on the Hidden Enemies questline that leads him to Ragefire Chasm -- that it's a pretty interesting and engrossing storyline and that they'll happily take him through Ragefire to finish the quests within the short time he has to play. He logs on, expecting to get this done -- and Thrall isn't there. Not only is he not there, but he's not respawning for some time. He misses out on his week's worth of advancement because an NPC isn't there.
Too, I mentioned something there that would be a serious flaw -- Thrall being more easy to kill during the march. That sort of thing is not acceptable game design-wise unless serious countermeasures were put in place.
Understand that I'd love that sort of thing as a player, and I understand where you do, too. But we're not the only type of players playing this game, my friend, and consideration needs to be made. :)
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786077 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 5:39:26 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
Not entirely clear, no.
At this point, of course, its something of a massive undertaking to do something like forked stroylines, but it's a thought for future things to come, no?
I guess my point was, if we're not going to have grandoise stories (the staple of RPGs everywhere), then at least we could have differing experiences. Making everything identical or as homogenous as possible just serves to continue the "I'm just like everyone else (storywise)" malaise.
I can't speak for everyone, but I'll be damned if I don't miss those "I wonder what's going to happen next?" storylines.
What I'm saying is that while it's a very, very remote possibility, odds are major forked storylines aren't happening. Divergence is something that needs to be planned out from the beginning and is, again, something that is better for a property that will continue to grow in the MMO territory and has no possibility of being explored in single player again.
Minor storyline changes? Again, possible, but again, not probable, due to the reasons I've stated.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786087 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 5:41:27 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
Yes but that doesn't mean they SHOULD be the results. Player direction is what happened in Mechwarrior the Dark Age and it turned the storyline into a directionless pile of garbage.
That said the game would be better if it was more 'flexible', although in a controlled way.
And Cay, why can't Blizzard both add new content as well as change current content? I understand why you can't do both at the same time but surely Blizzard could change between the options? Add two new content patches and then a change in content patch?
Oh and i don't mean large changes, just things like the Warlocks being pushed off Dreadmist peak and the animals no longer being corrupted.
Again, Taum, because it's more practical to devote that time to adding content rather than changing it. One gives new content for everyone, whereas the other only provides new content for some.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786096 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 5:53:29 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
But do additions always have to be the most 'practical' option? Raids are one of the more common additions but are something that many people will never play so is there really a difference?
Forgive me if i'm 'beating a dead horse' but a change to existing areas once in a while (note, not as regularly as additions, i do understand your aforementioned reasons) would help keep the game fresh for more than the people doing the quests.
If something happened in the world i'd investigate, even if i couldn't do the quests with my main character. It would also give more reason for people to create a new character and thus keep people in the game rather than quitting because they think they have 'seen it all'. I must admit though that i'm a bit of a roleplayer though :)
When we have the considerations we do, yes, what is most practical with developer time is what we're going to do for the time being. We honestly don't have the luxury of doing otherwise, particularly with our content development cycle.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786135 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 6:04:24 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
What about choices?
Individual player oriented choices that is.
This was done before in other worlds, and this is to me what is lacking as far as quests and "storyline" goes.
As a matter of fact there only couple ocassions that I recall when any sort of a choice needed to be made.. One was in Desolace, between Centaur clans, but even in that scenario from what I understand it is possible to ally with one clan, betray them, and ally with another afterwards with no long term consequences, another one is Bloodsail vs. Booty Bay.. Once again, not much of a choice there..
Why can't you add "repeatable content" that allows players to make meaningful long term choices??
Well, let's take a look at what we have now, for example.
Do you remember when the Stranglethorn Fishing Event came out? Do you remember the Bloodsail loyalists speaking out against it? They'd made that meaningful long-term choice and they wanted a way to participate in it, or if not, some alternative for their own group.
And that's just one choice -- imagine developing content for players who could have one of several paths open to them. That's an exponential increase in content that needs be developed.
I know that often times it sounds like "We're not doing this because it's hard", but honestly, I'm explaining this to you as realistically as possible:
We have a lengthy content development cycle. We have a limited amount of time and energy to spend developing content. We prefer to use these resources to create content that will have the largest impact on the most players -- present and future.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786229 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 6:22:47 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
Caydiem, your arguments seem centered around two things:
A: Making non-repeatable content is too hard and might disrupt the course of future games you may wish to implement, and
B: Not everyone could see or do them, which is no fun.
Simply put: other MMOs have accomplished them nontheless quite successfully. Who CARES if it might impede you from making another Warcraft Title? That was YOUR mistake in your greedy ambitions to make an MMORPG. Should you NOT make a game as good as it can be simply because you fear it may not allow you to make another later on? Some may say yes, I certainly say NO. You made your bed, now LIE IN IT.
There are ways around the issue of non-repeatable content as well: That is to say make these scripted events for up until the progression point you wish to make before you think your next game should come out lore-wise. Space those events out over the course of however many years you think it will take for it to come out. That way you can know exactly where you stand in order to proceed with a new game. I could go on and on about the intricacies of how you can do this successfully, but seriously, if its obvious to me, it should be BLOODY obvious to you. (on a side note, in terms of affecting the world around us, being able to take over towns and gain lands and lose lands is NOT something that would ruin lore, it would only make thing interesting and, well, dynamic in what is now a stale, boring world).
And in response to the second issue: HOW DARE YOU? How DARE you use this excuse when your company repeatedly comes out with content vast numbers of your player-base will NEVER ENJOY.
Thats right, you are already doing what you say you dont want to do. How fun do you think it is to hear about the amazing new content in AQ only to realize that since you havent even managed to muster the consecutive hours or the right guild to go to MOLTEN CORE yet that you will never enjoy that content? And whats worse, that you will be ever more a second-class citizen due to your disgusting itemization imbalances due to a flood of epics? You will feel MUCH WORSE.
Frankly, the loss of not being able to participate in a one-time event in WoW would be severely less then what all casual and raid-hating players are already left out of. For one, we would still be able to see the effects of that event after it has come out and gone, because the world will be different. Plus, through the amazing ability of Player Interaction, retelling the story will be a fun event amongst those to tell others what they missed. Whats more, is after the event finishes, you could always create tiny in-game cut sequences that allow people to "view the memory" of the situation, and in essence see for themselves this plot development.
The one thing I got from your very lengthy reply was that your reasoning is both lazy and downright insulting. How about you stop creating content less then half of your player base will see before pulling that card, huh Caydiem?
Well, this was a civil discussion.
Lyrra, first, I'll ask you to tone down the hostility in your words. There is a way to be passionate in your response without wording it as an attack, and as you seem to be a fairly well-spoken individual, I'm sure you can find that medium. I ask you to use it here, as hostility has no place within this discussion.
To dispute your points:
Q u o t e:
Simply put: other MMOs have accomplished them nontheless quite successfully.
And I personally worked on two of the ones included in your mention. As such, I know very well how they did it. I also know, very well, why their methods won't work with our setup here with World of Warcraft.
Q u o t e:
Who CARES if it might impede you from making another Warcraft Title? That was YOUR mistake in your greedy ambitions to make an MMORPG. Should you NOT make a game as good as it can be simply because you fear it may not allow you to make another later on? Some may say yes, I certainly say NO. You made your bed, now LIE IN IT.
With all due respect, this is our world to create and move forward at our own pace and with our own methods. You're expecting something we don't necessarily have to give. A changing, dynamic, player-driven storyline can make a game better, but it doesn't mean it will. I've seen both.
Our bed, as we've chosen to define it, is quite comfortable, thank you.
Q u o t e:
Space those events out over the course of however many years you think it will take for it to come out. That way you can know exactly where you stand in order to proceed with a new game.
As anyone who is familiar with our past ETAs can tell you, I don't think this plan would work given our development cycle. I think World of Warcraft was originally slated to come out in 2003. ;)
Q u o t e:
(on a side note, in terms of affecting the world around us, being able to take over towns and gain lands and lose lands is NOT something that would ruin lore, it would only make thing interesting and, well, dynamic in what is now a stale, boring world).
Now, in my statement regarding Stormwind, did I ever once state that it would ruin lore? No, I did not. Stormwind, after all, was destroyed in the past. I'm referring more to people and places being utterly and permanently changed, and that varying from realm to realm.
Q u o t e:
And in response to the second issue: HOW DARE YOU? How DARE you use this excuse when your company repeatedly comes out with content vast numbers of your player-base will NEVER ENJOY.
Ahhh, I knew this was coming.
You know, I remember a day -- I think it was early 2005 -- that Molten Core was really gearing up and so many people were dismayed. Only the hardest of the hardcore could kill Ragnaros, and it was the most boastworthy effort of the day.
Nowadays? Small guild alliances are dropping Ragnaros regularly -- people who swore they'd never kill him a year ago. Blackwing Lair is currently the most boastworthy thing, with Ahn'Qiraj coming up to replace it. There are a lot of people who are steadfastly non-raid and refuse to even attempt it -- but the opportunity is there for them to try, which would not be the case with non-repeatable events.
There is a difference, in fact.
Thank you for your opinion. I do hope next time you phrase it in a civil manner, as we were having a fine discussion before you posted in a hostile way.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786412 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 6:30:35 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
And there's the elitist snobbery we've come to expect from you Caydiem. When all else fails, just say "We'll do what we want".
Please remind yourself that you are a CM, not a Developer. Sitting in meetings doesn't mean that you develop game content. You're a PR person, remember that.
I'm sure your bed is quite comfortable, it's padded with millions of dollars.
You've come to expect elitist snobbery from me? That's rather disappointing, as I never intend to come off as an elitist snob.
No, I do not currently develop game content for World of Warcraft.
I do, however, have three years of world event design experience for MMOs under my belt, and am familiar with World of Warcraft's choices as a liaison.
I sincerely apologize if I'm coming off as elitist -- not my intent, but I do want to impress upon you that it isn't as if these ideas that are being proposed have not been discussed time and again. I am instead giving the general outlook.
Now, the bed comment was rather snarky, and I readily admit I may have been a bit out of line on that one. Thank you for calling me on it. :)
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786511 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 6:32:57 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
I'd like to go on record as saying that a PUG will never clear BWL unless it's nerfed.
Your MC argument is void, it's much easier than it used to be.
Making hard content easier != making new content.
Honestly, it isn't the changes to the encounters (though they did help, naturally) as much as it is having more varied, powerful equipment available and having more skilled players than was the case previously.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786539 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 6:38:45 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Just a general statement, and one I need to make every time this subject comes up...
Folks, please understand that I'm not advocating an entirely static world. We plan to continue making the world a living, breathing place; while we do World Events primarily based on real world events, we also plan to do entirely lore-based ones at some point.
We're monitoring the Ahn'Qiraj event, and there may be more like it in the future.
We also plan on bringing back World PvP, and there are talks of consequences and faction considerations, but nothing's solid at the moment. Rest assured, though, that we do want it to have some impact while remaining interesting and compelling. :)
In short, I'm not saying that we're going to maintain a static world. I'm saying that huge, diverging storylines probably aren't in the cards.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786613 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 6:38:45 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep *edited post* |
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Just a general statement, and one I need to make every time this subject comes up...
Folks, please understand that I'm not advocating an entirely static world. We plan to continue making the world a living, breathing place; while we do World Events primarily based on real world events, we also plan to do entirely lore-based ones at some point.
We're monitoring the Ahn'Qiraj event, and there may be more like it in the future.
We also plan on bringing back World PvP, and there are talks of consequences and faction considerations, but nothing's solid at the moment. Rest assured, though, that we do want it to have some impact while remaining interesting and compelling. :)
In short, I'm not saying that we're going to maintain a static world. I'm saying that huge, diverging storylines probably aren't in the cards.
(EDIT: Bolded World PvP since a lot of people miss my saying this. It's the second time in this thread, and about the dozenth all told. ;) )[ post edited by Caydiem ]
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786613 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 6:47:50 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Atomzmix, player housing is a whole different can of worms, and while peripheral, isn't directly related to this discussion.
Andres, what you're asking for is a lot of extra work for the art department and QA, believe it or not. Weather is on its way, but it won't be destructive.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786744 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 6:51:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
You could have advisors of Thrall give those quests
Yep, but you missed my initial statement -- such conditions cause a nightmare for QA to test, and also can cause potential quest issues. :P
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786799 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 7:01:47 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
The reason we're kinda, sorta ignoring what you're saying about World PvP development is because we haven't even seen the slightest hint of what might be coming, in terms of even the vaguest preview. From what we've seen so far, it takes 4-6 months or so from the first preview for something to make it into the game. In this case, we're looking at the expansion or later before seeing the plan for World PvP come to fruition, and quite frankly many of us may have lost interest by then completely.
Until we see a World PvP preview, or until you at least say that the preview will be coming soon, we're not really seeing anything that will help us in the current timeframe.
Well yes, and I understand that to a point. Until either side has more to offer, it will be:
"Bring back World PvP!"
"We plan on it."
Ad infinitum. I'm just trying to emphasize it in this particular post, as it's being suggested as a solution long after I've mentioned that said solution is already in the works. :)
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786921 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 7:06:01 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
Cool, and thanks for the response, but can you at least say whether it'll be before the expansion, in the expansion or after the expansion? Those three options give us at least a little bit of a timeframe so we aren't holding our breath every day. And when I say timeframe, I'm not asking for an ETA, just a timeframe in relation to other things in development, namely the expansion.
If I had any kind of timeframe for ya, I'd give it, but I don't have one.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786980 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 7:36:24 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Thlipsis, it's not a matter of what we can do, it's a matter of what we should do.
At the end of Beta, the Burning Legion laid siege to every major city on Azeroth. I made that encounter, so please don't take the following as a personal dislike for that sort of thing. It greatly interests me as a player. I don't mind being inconvenienced by such content. It's intriguing.
At the same time, though, I'm very aware that not everyone plays like me. I am also very much aware of past attempts at making such sweeping, inconveniencing changes and the community backlash that resulted (I'm referring to MMOs in general, here). It isn't that we can't do such things, but rather that such actions have consequences and cater to a very specific subset of players while alienating others to the point of being unable to do anything within the game at all. The repercussions can often be felt more than the positive impact.
I'm not saying the world's going to remain static, but what I am saying is that such events as you propose can have significant drawbacks. We have a wide variety of playstyles to consider when creating these events -- not just the bored level 60 demographic. ;)
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6787273 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/24/2006 12:30:29 AM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
Your original post was well thought out, and well directed. I've always respected your opinion, Cay. To the rest of this forum that felt it necessary to write 'pwned' before even reading Caydiem's response - you all deserve a swift kick in the face.
However, this affirms my point - something I've felt for a long time, something I'm quite certain the rest of this community along with yourself, Cay, will realize that Blizzard would prefer a quantity over quality type of situation.
Now, while this is a business venture, I've always felt like (along with others) that this company saw above the dollar signs and looked to just making great games. Yes, World of Warcraft WAS a fun game, no, an expansion will not save it.
Unless the development team can change the face of this 'MMORPG' by allowing its dictation to rest in the millions of us that play it, fanboys like myself will lose that faith we once had in your company and take our business elsewhere.
Your still looking at the addition of new accounts as opposed to taking care of the hundreds of problems you have in the game. How many bugs exist within already established dungeons, instances, and class-quest lines - but instead of fixing these, you add more and more, almost as if you're covering up the problem by creating more. What about the 1200 long-lines of players that are stuck in queue, that you virtually ignore and state, "we're working on the problem?"
Your company has become so helplessly dependent on the green-backs that you've forgotten the players that have BROUGHT you this far.
Instead of giving the dictation of this game, what Chris Metzen has even called a monster, to the players where it rightfully belongs - you allow the development team to dictate where this 'monster's' direction heads. And for what? Because your development leader has decided that we as players aren't capable of having an interactive world? One where we can have some sort of an impact on the things that happen?
Having some repeatable content isn't bad.
Having everything being repeatable is. The problem is - you treat us all like we're children, taking care of us, pampering us along the way, instead of giving us the ability to control some aspects of this game.
I'll be waiting for your response.
Understand that I'm not speaking in any way about what is financially feasible. Leave the business aspect behind. What I'm talking about -- what I've been talking about -- is game design decisions and why we've made them. Now mind, sometimes these things go hand in hand with what's sound business-wise, but that's not what I was referring to at all in this thread.
A balance needs to be struck, and yes, the posts I've made about new players are still very much valid. I know it's hard for me to prove this without giving numbers, and my hands are utterly tied on this, but I hope I've given myself enough ground to stand on here when I ask you to trust me on this one: considering what new players experience is still very important according to our internal numbers. This isn't about making money, but rather understanding our audience -- understanding who plays the game, and who we're developing content for. It's easy to get a skewed sample by reading these forums, which are, in the majority, peopled by those who are more experienced with the game. Understand, too, that I am by no means shunting the experienced crowd: they're just as important, but we can't ignore the new player.
Now, I'm going to operate on the assumption that the following line of thought is the one on which you're operating; please correct me if I'm wrong. You are of the mind that the narrative direction of the game should ultimately, at least in part but perhaps in total, be given to the player.
Now, I did cover this in my initial response to you, because that's the message I received from your original post. To cover it again, briefly:
Giving players control over narrative direction implies heavily diverging content. Diverging content adds layer upon layer of complexity to any content we choose to add after the divergence occurs. It also poses a conundrum to any future single-player titles: which realm's history is the right one? They're all equally valid, but they're all different. It would be one thing if World of Warcraft is definitively the end of the line for this franchise, but that's not the case. This isn't about money, but it is about story, and if this ever goes back to single player games, there needs to be a definitive history of what happened during this era.
Understand, please, that I'm not saying you'll never be a part of changing the world in some way, but if you are, it will more likely be in an event similar to that of Ahn'Qiraj, at least as far as impact on lore goes (not necessarily in gameplay/execution).
Strongly diverging content is fantastic in a game designed expressly for it, but I will be honest with you; I don't believe World of Warcraft is that game. We plan to continue to have world events that hope to get you involved in a world that's becoming a little more dynamic with every addition. I apologize if you're expecting to have direct narrative control as a player... because I honestly do not see that being feasible at this point.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6789741 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/24/2006 12:37:43 AM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Q u o t e:
If your so concerned about the new players? what about the new players who will never see the opening of the AQ gates. What about people who are asleep during the event or working.
Why would you make an event that most people won't even get a chance to see (its not like they can go back and do the event again
Yes, that is a drawback, which is why I've said several times in this thread that these sorts of events will be uncommon.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6789779 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/24/2006 12:55:24 AM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Aznudarg, I respect and understand your position.
And I hope you'll respect mine when I say, with no humor whatsoever, that these boards and the realms in-game would literally explode with anger and frustration if the Ahn'Qiraj event you suggest was implemented.
Oh, it's a fantastic idea on paper, don't get me wrong. A way to force people to get in on the action, right? Everyone would take part. It'd be great. Surely no one would mind a little inconvenience when it's part of a dynamic world.
Except... yes, actually, they would. Someone else mentioned the thought earlier on, but to paraphrase, this does often hold true: "Everyone's interested in and excited about dynamic events until the day they inconvenience you."
It doesn't hold true for everyone of course. Me, personally? I'd love that sort of event. But then, I have a computer and connection that can handle the load -- not everyone does. I have a level 60 and could jump in on the action easily -- a lower level player might not have the same experience, even with lower level mobs added in (those tend to be killed first by the higher levels). I don't have a limited time to play, really, whereas some others certainly do. I don't care about repair costs, but there are others that don't have the cash to foot the bill frivolously due to any of a number of factors.
And this isn't even considering server load and lag in general. Before dishonorable kills, did you ever attend a raid on Ironforge? I know I was at several. Did you ever end up in a successful raid on Ironforge? I know I didn't, and it wasn't due to player skill. :P
Aznudarg, your heart's in the right place, and your ideas, again, do sound nice on paper. The difference between your experience and mine is that I, personally, have done precisely what you suggest in the past and have witnessed the reaction, so when I say that no, not everyone would enjoy it, and yes, in fact a lot of people would be frustrated, all I ask is that you accept that this is indeed a possible outcome of your plan.
Our current stance on this is not to force this content on anyone, but rather lead players to it, so those who want to participate in it find it accessible but those who do not don't get their noses shoved in it.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6789897 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 6:30:35 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
And there's the elitist snobbery we've come to expect from you Caydiem. When all else fails, just say "We'll do what we want".
Please remind yourself that you are a CM, not a Developer. Sitting in meetings doesn't mean that you develop game content. You're a PR person, remember that.
I'm sure your bed is quite comfortable, it's padded with millions of dollars.
You've come to expect elitist snobbery from me? That's rather disappointing, as I never intend to come off as an elitist snob.
No, I do not currently develop game content for World of Warcraft.
I do, however, have three years of world event design experience for MMOs under my belt, and am familiar with World of Warcraft's choices as a liaison.
I sincerely apologize if I'm coming off as elitist -- not my intent, but I do want to impress upon you that it isn't as if these ideas that are being proposed have not been discussed time and again. I am instead giving the general outlook.
Now, the bed comment was rather snarky, and I readily admit I may have been a bit out of line on that one. Thank you for calling me on it. :)
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786511 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 6:32:57 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
I'd like to go on record as saying that a PUG will never clear BWL unless it's nerfed.
Your MC argument is void, it's much easier than it used to be.
Making hard content easier != making new content.
Honestly, it isn't the changes to the encounters (though they did help, naturally) as much as it is having more varied, powerful equipment available and having more skilled players than was the case previously.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786539 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 6:38:45 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep *edited post* |
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Just a general statement, and one I need to make every time this subject comes up...
Folks, please understand that I'm not advocating an entirely static world. We plan to continue making the world a living, breathing place; while we do World Events primarily based on real world events, we also plan to do entirely lore-based ones at some point.
We're monitoring the Ahn'Qiraj event, and there may be more like it in the future.
We also plan on bringing back World PvP, and there are talks of consequences and faction considerations, but nothing's solid at the moment. Rest assured, though, that we do want it to have some impact while remaining interesting and compelling. :)
In short, I'm not saying that we're going to maintain a static world. I'm saying that huge, diverging storylines probably aren't in the cards.
(EDIT: Bolded World PvP since a lot of people miss my saying this. It's the second time in this thread, and about the dozenth all told. ;) )[ post edited by Caydiem ]
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786613 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 6:47:50 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep *edited post* |
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Atomzmix, player housing is a whole different can of worms, and while peripheral, isn't directly related to this discussion.
Andres, what you're asking for is a lot of extra work for the art department and QA, believe it or not. Weather is on its way, but it won't be destructive.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786744 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 6:51:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
You could have advisors of Thrall give those quests
Yep, but you missed my initial statement -- such conditions cause a nightmare for QA to test, and also can cause potential quest issues. :P
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786799 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 7:01:47 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
The reason we're kinda, sorta ignoring what you're saying about World PvP development is because we haven't even seen the slightest hint of what might be coming, in terms of even the vaguest preview. From what we've seen so far, it takes 4-6 months or so from the first preview for something to make it into the game. In this case, we're looking at the expansion or later before seeing the plan for World PvP come to fruition, and quite frankly many of us may have lost interest by then completely.
Until we see a World PvP preview, or until you at least say that the preview will be coming soon, we're not really seeing anything that will help us in the current timeframe.
Well yes, and I understand that to a point. Until either side has more to offer, it will be:
"Bring back World PvP!"
"We plan on it."
Ad infinitum. I'm just trying to emphasize it in this particular post, as it's being suggested as a solution long after I've mentioned that said solution is already in the works. :)
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786921 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 7:06:01 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Cool, and thanks for the response, but can you at least say whether it'll be before the expansion, in the expansion or after the expansion? Those three options give us at least a little bit of a timeframe so we aren't holding our breath every day. And when I say timeframe, I'm not asking for an ETA, just a timeframe in relation to other things in development, namely the expansion.
If I had any kind of timeframe for ya, I'd give it, but I don't have one.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6786980 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/23/2006 7:36:24 PM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep *edited post* |
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Thlipsis, it's not a matter of what we can do, it's a matter of what we should do.
At the end of Beta, the Burning Legion laid siege to every major city on Azeroth. I made that encounter, so please don't take the following as a personal dislike for that sort of thing. It greatly interests me as a player. I don't mind being inconvenienced by such content. It's intriguing.
At the same time, though, I'm very aware that not everyone plays like me. I am also very much aware of past attempts at making such sweeping, inconveniencing changes and the community backlash that resulted (I'm referring to MMOs in general, here). It isn't that we can't do such things, but rather that such actions have consequences and cater to a very specific subset of players while alienating others to the point of being unable to do anything within the game at all. The repercussions can often be felt more than the positive impact.
I'm not saying the world's going to remain static, but what I am saying is that such events as you propose can have significant drawbacks. We have a wide variety of playstyles to consider when creating these events -- not just the bored level 60 demographic. ;)
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6787273 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/24/2006 12:30:29 AM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Your original post was well thought out, and well directed. I've always respected your opinion, Cay. To the rest of this forum that felt it necessary to write 'pwned' before even reading Caydiem's response - you all deserve a swift kick in the face.
However, this affirms my point - something I've felt for a long time, something I'm quite certain the rest of this community along with yourself, Cay, will realize that Blizzard would prefer a quantity over quality type of situation.
Now, while this is a business venture, I've always felt like (along with others) that this company saw above the dollar signs and looked to just making great games. Yes, World of Warcraft WAS a fun game, no, an expansion will not save it.
Unless the development team can change the face of this 'MMORPG' by allowing its dictation to rest in the millions of us that play it, fanboys like myself will lose that faith we once had in your company and take our business elsewhere.
Your still looking at the addition of new accounts as opposed to taking care of the hundreds of problems you have in the game. How many bugs exist within already established dungeons, instances, and class-quest lines - but instead of fixing these, you add more and more, almost as if you're covering up the problem by creating more. What about the 1200 long-lines of players that are stuck in queue, that you virtually ignore and state, "we're working on the problem?"
Your company has become so helplessly dependent on the green-backs that you've forgotten the players that have BROUGHT you this far.
Instead of giving the dictation of this game, what Chris Metzen has even called a monster, to the players where it rightfully belongs - you allow the development team to dictate where this 'monster's' direction heads. And for what? Because your development leader has decided that we as players aren't capable of having an interactive world? One where we can have some sort of an impact on the things that happen?
Having some repeatable content isn't bad.
Having everything being repeatable is. The problem is - you treat us all like we're children, taking care of us, pampering us along the way, instead of giving us the ability to control some aspects of this game.
I'll be waiting for your response.
Understand that I'm not speaking in any way about what is financially feasible. Leave the business aspect behind. What I'm talking about -- what I've been talking about -- is game design decisions and why we've made them. Now mind, sometimes these things go hand in hand with what's sound business-wise, but that's not what I was referring to at all in this thread.
A balance needs to be struck, and yes, the posts I've made about new players are still very much valid. I know it's hard for me to prove this without giving numbers, and my hands are utterly tied on this, but I hope I've given myself enough ground to stand on here when I ask you to trust me on this one: considering what new players experience is still very important according to our internal numbers. This isn't about making money, but rather understanding our audience -- understanding who plays the game, and who we're developing content for. It's easy to get a skewed sample by reading these forums, which are, in the majority, peopled by those who are more experienced with the game. Understand, too, that I am by no means shunting the experienced crowd: they're just as important, but we can't ignore the new player.
Now, I'm going to operate on the assumption that the following line of thought is the one on which you're operating; please correct me if I'm wrong. You are of the mind that the narrative direction of the game should ultimately, at least in part but perhaps in total, be given to the player.
Now, I did cover this in my initial response to you, because that's the message I received from your original post. To cover it again, briefly:
Giving players control over narrative direction implies heavily diverging content. Diverging content adds layer upon layer of complexity to any content we choose to add after the divergence occurs. It also poses a conundrum to any future single-player titles: which realm's history is the right one? They're all equally valid, but they're all different. It would be one thing if World of Warcraft is definitively the end of the line for this franchise, but that's not the case. This isn't about money, but it is about story, and if this ever goes back to single player games, there needs to be a definitive history of what happened during this era.
Understand, please, that I'm not saying you'll never be a part of changing the world in some way, but if you are, it will more likely be in an event similar to that of Ahn'Qiraj, at least as far as impact on lore goes (not necessarily in gameplay/execution).
Strongly diverging content is fantastic in a game designed expressly for it, but I will be honest with you; I don't believe World of Warcraft is that game. We plan to continue to have world events that hope to get you involved in a world that's becoming a little more dynamic with every addition. I apologize if you're expecting to have direct narrative control as a player... because I honestly do not see that being feasible at this point.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6789741 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/24/2006 12:37:43 AM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
If your so concerned about the new players? what about the new players who will never see the opening of the AQ gates. What about people who are asleep during the event or working.
Why would you make an event that most people won't even get a chance to see (its not like they can go back and do the event again
Yes, that is a drawback, which is why I've said several times in this thread that these sorts of events will be uncommon.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6789779 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/24/2006 12:55:24 AM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep *edited post* |
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Aznudarg, I respect and understand your position.
And I hope you'll respect mine when I say, with no humor whatsoever, that these boards and the realms in-game would literally explode with anger and frustration if the Ahn'Qiraj event you suggest was implemented.
Oh, it's a fantastic idea on paper, don't get me wrong. A way to force people to get in on the action, right? Everyone would take part. It'd be great. Surely no one would mind a little inconvenience when it's part of a dynamic world.
Except... yes, actually, they would. Someone else mentioned the thought earlier on, but to paraphrase, this does often hold true: "Everyone's interested in and excited about dynamic events until the day they inconvenience you."
It doesn't hold true for everyone of course. Me, personally? I'd love that sort of event. But then, I have a computer and connection that can handle the load -- not everyone does. I have a level 60 and could jump in on the action easily -- a lower level player might not have the same experience, even with lower level mobs added in (those tend to be killed first by the higher levels). I don't have a limited time to play, really, whereas some others certainly do. I don't care about repair costs, but there are others that don't have the cash to foot the bill frivolously due to any of a number of factors.
And this isn't even considering server load and lag in general. Before dishonorable kills, did you ever attend a raid on Ironforge? I know I was at several. Did you ever end up in a successful raid on Ironforge? I know I didn't, and it wasn't due to player skill. :P
Aznudarg, your heart's in the right place, and your ideas, again, do sound nice on paper. The difference between your experience and mine is that I, personally, have done precisely what you suggest in the past and have witnessed the reaction, so when I say that no, not everyone would enjoy it, and yes, in fact a lot of people would be frustrated, all I ask is that you accept that this is indeed a possible outcome of your plan.
Our current stance on this is not to force this content on anyone, but rather lead players to it, so those who want to participate in it find it accessible but those who do not don't get their noses shoved in it.
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6768908&p=#post6789897 | Poster: Caydiem at 1/24/2006 11:19:49 AM PST
Subject: Re: The Lack of Interactivity - Mundane Gamep |
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Acrofales, I'm the one who made the end of Beta event. Those infernals, those demons? All planned out by me.
That was a special case. Everyone enjoyed the "forced" event because no one cared. It was the end of Beta. These characters were being deleted the next day. GMs weren't taking tickets -- they were watching the action, spawning in mobs occasionally to keep people interested.
And yeah, it was fun for a lot of people. But that's not something we can duplicate right now (certainly not the way it was done in Beta, anyway). And it's not something we want to duplicate. These characters we're playing aren't going to be deleted the next day. Repair costs matter. Time matters. I understand that you feel it was fun, and I understand that you, personally, wouldn't mind it now... but I hope that, as I'm the person who made the encounter, you'll take my word for it when I say it's not the best thing to do at this point due to the factors I've mentioned in this thread.
As for the suggestion of hitting Thunder Bluff and Darnassus with bug invasions, not only are those two cities the most impractical to hit with Silithid lore-wise, but it's still forcing it on people. No, our general outlook at this time is that we're not forcing you to participate. You can if you like, but if you don't want to, you're not shoved into the action anyway. I don't think that's changing.
Now, Queptar!
Hah, Queptar, my friend, I know how human actors in these games work all too well. And because of that, I can tell you that with the number of realms we have, there is no way we could deliver content on a wide-reaching and high-quality scale with human actors at this point without the cost being astronomical (folks, I continue to make the point that this isn't about money, and in this case too it's primarily about quality. The business practicality does step in, however, since it's regarding personnel. Read on).
Here's the dilemma.
When you have a small number of available servers -- say you can count them on your hands -- employed actors are certainly an option. You can cover the ground you need to cover in a reasonable timeframe. Because your actors are employed by the company, you have strict control over the quality of their work, and the result can be a wonderful and engrossing experience.
When you have "dozens" of servers, depending on the number, you can probably field them with volunteer actors -- at this point, employed actors aren't remotely cost-effective for the impact they'll have -- but you can't control the quality as strictly. This results in a lot more human error and lore mistakes that are taken as canon.
When you have hundreds of realms worldwide, as we do, even volunteers (which we don't wish to use in this capacity for a number of reasons. Research volunteers for past games if you're curious) become difficult -- the sheer number you'd need to properly field these realms (and understand I'm talking a small crew covering several realms on a schedule, not a small crew to every realm) is insane. Your quality control tanks unless they're employees, and for the impact human actors make, it's just not worth it.
Now, myself, as a player? I love that human interaction. The idea of speaking to a famous NPC and having them respond to me in a human way is very immersive, and can definitely bring more players into the story. I understand well the merits of such a program, as they're something that interest me. But at the same time, human actors simply are not feasible with our model.
I've already covered the arguments regarding the Thrall event a few pages back, folks...
And as for a video, that's definitely a possibility, but only a while after the fact. The vast majority of realms have yet to unlock the gates, and we don't want to spoil it for them. ;)
EDIT: It appears now that this thread is broken. Thank you all for the conversation![ post edited by Caydiem ]
I'm not a malefactor, I'm a lagomorph!
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