Poster: Marit at 1/4/2006 1:20:02 AM PST
Subject: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Every minute you are erasing many posts made by customers who are unsatisfied with the game, but then completely ignoring people going on about the EXACT SAME points as other posters, but who are just kissing your butt.
In the last 15 mins, there have been 14 posts(one, no more or less, was the post of mine you deleted) by my count by people discussing the endgame content and presenting the idea that the raiding endgame style is not sufficient. There have been 5 posts by people who discuss the exact same issue but basically tell every who doesnt like raiding to quit or SFTU.
And those posts you leave... hhmm I wonder why?
If you decide to allow no posting on a topic, at least delete the posts by your rabid fanbois as quickly as those who think the game can be improved upon.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 2:08:16 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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I have a vision of players thoroughly reading topics and posts to discern the tenor of the community. A realm in which a topic is not deemed meritous by the number of new topics it spawns, but by how many pages of replies it engenders.
I look to the community to be discerning and put faith in other members to bring up topics, rather than feel the need to start a new topic and believe it is the first time it has been posted.
In this sense, the forums will not be submerged in a sea of similar but distinct posts and players will engage in conversation amongst themselves about these overlapping ideas and concepts.
I have a vision of players not repetitively bumping their own post so it does not fall off the first page, but rather bumping threads with significant contributions to bring real attention and dialogue to these forums.
Therefore, duplicate threads are deleted/locked and topics and threads that generate real support and communication are left to thrive.
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 2:16:05 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
I can respect that, but a deletion in under a minute is a preemptive strike based not on the communities views of what to support, but the mods views.
So, when patch time comes about and 1000 different players wish to report the same bug/greivance/praise about the game, we should respect their wishes to do so?
This puts us in the current situation of approximately 90 new posts a minute. The method you outline is how it has gone on for some time. The method I outline involves communicating and negotiating with the player base on what is possible and recommended. I do it not for me, but for the convenience of everyone.
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 2:18:30 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
Also Tseric, when we see one set of posts survive and another die, we look for things in common. When we see that the ones that survive are mostly 'supportive' of Blizzard, and the ones that die are mostly critical, we being to wonder if some sort of 'extra factor' isn't being applied to the modding.
It's not just the fact that dupes get killed. It's that some dupes are permitted to live while others are headshotted, even before the thread has a chance to 'generate real support and communication'.
You mean threads like '1.9 is a joke?' 3 pages in length?
https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6524949&p=1&tmp=1#post6524949
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 2:29:53 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
No, I'm more talking about threads which are critical of the 40-man endgame being instalocked or deleted, yet many many threads on the same topic which contain Blizzard-supportive posts (things like "wait for the expansion" or "Blizz knows what they're doing") seem to live on, even though BOTH of the posts would seem to classify as 'dupes'.
Nice dodge attempt, BTW. Futile, but nice.
[edit] There are other examples of these types of threads, like the "RP servers are full" threads mentioned below. I'm sure more will be noted...
I am sorry I am not in all places at all times. I can not give everyone the proper pat on the head or post deletion that you/I/they think they deserve. Your previous comments show a selection of evidence which backs up your point, not the greater variety of these forums. Case in point:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6489725&p=1&tmp=1#post6489725
If I moderate repeatedly, I will be called a facist censor. If I do not moderate enough, I will be called cold and unattentive. There will be no balance I can maintain to satisfy your particular perception of how these boards should work. In my opinion, that is an unavoidable truth when dealing with conventional wisdom.
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 2:31:28 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
ironic isn't it?
Obviously it was deleted by me or another mod, yes? Not by the OP to satisfy your logic, yes?
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 2:56:33 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
Who knows how this game actually plays better than this community? No one. Not even the developers. They know how it operates "in theory" but they simply don't have enough man hours to know the nuances of the mechanics, the effects of what we perceive as bugs, the minor terrain variances which can radically alter an encounter, a class, or a raid.
Meklos, you are attempting, again, to re-frame the debate to your own ends. You are practically coming to the point of hi-jacking the thread.
For this particular quote, you may very well be correct. But, I would counter that the community has less of a collective understanding of the broader aspects of this game than the developers do. You may cite your own specific anecdotes and have your own experiential understanding, but the devs play this game as well and have such an understanding of their own. As a collective, the development team is much more cohesive than the community. That is not to be derogatory in the least. It is to illustrate that the truth of the community is based on many other varying factors. Conventional wisdom may have truth, but the facts must still be sought out and distilled.
Q u o t e:
Imagine if a car company never sent out surveys, never asked the consumers of it's product what *they* liked and disliked, what *they* saw as problems? You would have engineers designing them from paper only, without the critical input of the community, to know how their designs actually work out in the real world.
This is the piece that Blizzard is missing, and is missing badly.
This quote assumes the devs do not play this game or interact with anyone who does play the game.[ post edited by Tseric ]
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 3:03:30 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
Can you really make that claim with a straight face? Unless you're omnipotent I doubt you can.
You have a penchant for framing arguments this way Tseric, as if you had some greater insight into the future, some form of knowledge of how your actions would be percieved before they are carried out.
I don't know why you do it but, as a matter of discourse it's cheap. It's pedestrian.
Granted, the experience I have had in this particular position has not been extensive by my own estimation, but experience has explicitly shown that any action on my part will be criticized by someone. Can you challenge such a pedestrian comment with something more established?
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 3:06:57 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
/flame...
this post has no point
But, perhaps your post did in proving my point?
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 4:17:58 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
What I find amusing is that we had a similar situation at the company I currently work for.
A project team was formed to create a new version of our main application on a new platform. In the beginning there was the usual round of requirements gathering from the users and in the end the project team decided that the users did not know what they were talking about and proceeded to create a version of the application that they felt the users needed.
Not suprisingly when the software was presented to the users they totally rejected it as it did not mesh with our current business practices, used non-standard terminology and failed to follow industry standards. The project team insisted that they knew what was right and that the users would have to change how they did business.
Last time I checked the project lead and senior developer were still looking for a new job.
The moral?
Never underestimate a development teams ability to let its collective ego block out user feedback because they know better.
Interesting analogy. However, it obscures the fact that we actually listen to our player feedback, follow/mesh with current business practices and work with industry standards. Our "collective ego" does not play out in the same fashion as your anecdote.
In fact, it is a particular principle of mine to engage in such conversation exemplified in this thread. The OP presented a point. I offered a clear alternate opinion and drive. The thread continues with point and counter-point. Is this analogous?
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 4:21:38 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
i honestly find it bizarre at the way in which certain complaints: typically 'my class sucks, nerf his class' remain while significantly more valid and well thought-out concerns as to the nature of end-game content and expansion end up being deleted.
bizarre.
We devoted several stickies to end-game progression. We will likely continue to create them as the thread breaks.
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 4:41:48 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
I don't post all that much, and i'm not a seasoned veteran of WoW (My highest character is in the 40 range), but Tseric's attitude and dialogue disgusts me. He is direspectful to people that pay for the service; he is also demeaning to players, and spurts vague insults at them. In a position as a moderator and a representative, you should not be disrespectful or demeaning.
Tseric, your attitude and terrible customer support is disgusting, and if Blizzard wanted to try to be more professional, they could start off firing you.
If you want to have an internet ego contest, do it on your own time on IRC or private forums. This is a forum for a game that people pay for, and you're paid to be here. Act like it.
My customer support is to encourage players to think outside of themselves and to have an understanding of real community. If you think I am here to demean players, I would counter that I am here to illustrate consequence of their actions in a group setting. That is something not easy to enforce outside of suspending forum privileges.
As it stands, I don't like to suspend players, because I'm a "free-speech" sort of guy. Therefore, another brand of internet accountability must be enacted. Be suspended or engage in potentially humiliating debate. And when I say humiliating, I speak from a particular moral stand-point that doesn't regard pride or embarassment or other social convention as a spring-board for human interaction.
I can appreciate the fact you may not agree with my brusque attitude. But can you appreciate the fact I am dealing with this community in a different approach than deletion/suspension? Do you know what that kind of approach entails?
I can not contribute meaningful debate by being obsequious and kow-towing. I must disagree and have others disagree with me. If you read my first post in this thread, I am not sure I understand how I did not do so in a respectful fashion.[ post edited by Tseric ]
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 4:48:39 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
We shall indeed see if the CMs and Blizzard in general is listening to us Players, when the weekly Forum Recap thread gets posted this weekend (IIRC). I expect we'll see some positive posts regarding Patch 1.9 and the new servers, but nothing regarding the RP server overcrowding, overall and continuing server queues, or problems with the new patch.
But I could be wrong. I doubt it, and time will certainly tell, but I don't think Blizzard will post highlight any of those negative threads.
But Blizzard is listening, right?
Not to throw this thread off-topic or anything, but...
Q u o t e:
but nothing regarding the RP server overcrowding, overall and continuing server queues, or problems with the new patch.
There are a crap-ton of new players. This causes crowding and queues. We have been opening new realms frequently in the recent past as well as new realms today.
If ever a patch went without a hitch on release, I think the sun would implode. Otherwise, we hotfix or patch as necessary.
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 4:54:05 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
Which explains why the last such thread made has been broken for over a week, and a new one has not been made and stickied? Right?
Edit: Ah, an unbroken one is there, seems I missed it. Still, they break quickly, with nothing new to be put up sometimes for days.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=6480861&P=1
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 5:18:23 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
"However, it obscures the fact that we actually listen to our player feedback, "
I really had to laugh at that one T-Man. While I do frequent the forums, I rarely post. I have been playing this game since the beginning, as I'm sure Tseric could find out if I'm lying. I haven't ever spoken out against you Tseric, but this will be the first time.
Well within your reason to speak out against me. I simply find it a shame that you choose this thread to do so.
Q u o t e:
Your attitude smacks of insults, veiled barbs against people that speak out against you, and you use the english language so primly and with an intelligent air about you. Yet, you use your command of the english language as a weapon, instead of actually listening to the people that may not have such a command, and they may not be able to type out exactly what they mean, but if you look between the lines, you can see what they are really saying. Your an intelligent, and dare I say, compassionate sounding gent. Yet, you mostly come off sounding like a preening King that doesn't have time to deal with us peasants, so you post something with a witty veiled barb...mostly for the fanbois I would assume, so they can feed your ego by praising your name, and hope for some tiny morsel of acknowledgement from their King. Sad, but unfortunately, its true.
Perhaps you are right in that I jibe individual posters. I can't really comment on the rest of your subjective approach. If I come off as a preening king to you, I doubt there is much I can say to convince you other-wise. I have admitted that my tone can be at times aggressive and/or acerbic.
Q u o t e:
As for the above post...I really hope you kept a straight face went you said that. Over the last year there have been so many threads about classes being broken, spells that don't work right, quests that can't be completed, etc.. And still these things are not fixed. No, I'm not going to give you examples, as you know exactly what I'm talking about, they are posted on every board here.
You're quite right; I kept a straight face. Anyone can call me a PR mouthpiece or a salesman. However, the only reason I would try to sell anything is if I believed in it. Do you seriously think I am trying to pawn some sub-par junk on you? Do you think I'm some brush salesman?
Granted, there are imperfections in this game, but to allude to a litany of failure is rather crude and unfair. You would curse me if I lived with you for a year and then came at you with a list of what I thought were your failures. Would it not be more respectful of me to bring up matters in a genial and constructive matter? Wouldn't that find more favorable results in the long run?
Q u o t e:
Using the "I have a Dream" format of MLK really is a huge insult to the man. Equating and using his speech format for a GAME is kinda pushing the boundries.
I was not referring to the game. I was referring to the community. I think it is quite pertinent and honorable to judge by the content of character. That is the only measure in an internet community.
Q u o t e:
Remember, perception is the key to humanity. It isn't so much what a person does, its what they 'perceive' from the person. And IMHO, you come off as a person of intelligence, and you use your mastery of the english language and debate like a sword to cut them subtily that they don't even know it sometimes. But there are those of us that see it for what it is. A flame...yes it might be a pretty flame...but a flame burns painfully no matter how pretty it may look.
You perceive my words now as I do yours. The community shall judge their validity over time. I place myself and my actions in their direct focus. I have no choice. Will you stand with me?[ post edited by Tseric ]
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 5:31:42 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
You might want to go read up on the threads after the 1.9 patch about the new sheep bug, the banish bug in MC (that was on test for 3 weeks and yet made it to production anyway), the guild invite bug, and the raid instance reset bugs that the patch introduced. Considering the huge number of things Vivendi breaks every single patch I think "litany of failure" is rather appropriate.
Of course, Vendris. And this occurred because all of our "top talent" left, right?
Troll another thread, srsly.
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 5:55:20 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
Of course you're trying to change the subject now, Tseric.. because you can't in fact say I'm wrong. It's a fact that 1.9, like every patch you guys have released, contains a large number of blatant bugs that have existed on test, and been known about on test, and yet still weren't fixed.
The specifics of why it happened and continues to happen aren't important: it did happen, and your "acerbic" reply doesn't change the reality of the situation.
Won't argue that this patch has bugs. A patch without bugs is like a day without sunshine. You have previously claimed to be a lead project (or design?) manager, so I assume you are familiar with such things.
However, let's be clear. It was not I that changed the subject. In that respect, you have trolled me well. Kudos to you, sir.
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 6:42:13 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
My god... I just realized he was posting well beyond 5am PST heh... and I thought I stayed up late. Don't you have work today Tseric? O.o Being unemployed I have an excuse ;P
-M
Yes..."office time" occurs in a few hours. But no, I'm really here to sell you some PR BS cause I'm a delusional robot of corporate culture. Can I sell you a bridge, too? :P
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 6:45:46 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
I'm also familiar with quality assurance processes and regression testing, which Vivendi obviously is not familiar with. There is absolutely no excuse for you to release code with major bugs that have been identified on the test server for weeks before the release.
If for some reason it is absolutely critical to release a patch with known bugs in it before they are fixed, then these bugs should be listed in your release notes as known issues.
It's not surprising that a CM wouldn't know the very basics of proper software engineering processes, but it is surprising that apparently your software engineers don't know them either.
Vendris, I ask this question with no hyperbole, sarcasm or disdain in the least...
Why don't you come work for us?
EDIT- this could be considered a hijack or off-topic...[ post edited by Tseric ]
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 6:52:33 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
Hey you know what's awesome? The SDLC he's talking about is taught at intro level community college computer courses, of which I am sure you are familiar.
Honestly, if it couldn't be fixed, and was identified and posted about ad nauseum for weeks in the test realm/bug forum, there should be a note about it.
So, are you suggesting everyone come work for us?
I'm all for institutional learning, but experience has it's own merits as well.
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 6:57:45 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
...which involve having to change corporate culture
I don't discount you for wanting to seperate yourself from that. Do you want to criticize me for attempting such a thing?
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 7:51:49 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. |
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Q u o t e:
Pushing non exploitable bugs to production can be acceptable, in some situations. When the bug you are releasing does not damage data integrity, does not introduce an exploit, and when the functionality of what it impacts is less important than the new functionality or fixes you are releasing.
Good of you to show some true colors, Vendris. And what of 1.9 fit in to these outlined categories?
P.S.- Again, verging off-topic.
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 6:42:13 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
My god... I just realized he was posting well beyond 5am PST heh... and I thought I stayed up late. Don't you have work today Tseric? O.o Being unemployed I have an excuse ;P
-M
Yes..."office time" occurs in a few hours. But no, I'm really here to sell you some PR BS cause I'm a delusional robot of corporate culture. Can I sell you a bridge, too? :P
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 6:45:46 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
I'm also familiar with quality assurance processes and regression testing, which Vivendi obviously is not familiar with. There is absolutely no excuse for you to release code with major bugs that have been identified on the test server for weeks before the release.
If for some reason it is absolutely critical to release a patch with known bugs in it before they are fixed, then these bugs should be listed in your release notes as known issues.
It's not surprising that a CM wouldn't know the very basics of proper software engineering processes, but it is surprising that apparently your software engineers don't know them either.
Vendris, I ask this question with no hyperbole, sarcasm or disdain in the least...
Why don't you come work for us?
EDIT- this could be considered a hijack or off-topic...[ post edited by Tseric ]
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 6:52:33 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Hey you know what's awesome? The SDLC he's talking about is taught at intro level community college computer courses, of which I am sure you are familiar.
Honestly, if it couldn't be fixed, and was identified and posted about ad nauseum for weeks in the test realm/bug forum, there should be a note about it.
So, are you suggesting everyone come work for us?
I'm all for institutional learning, but experience has it's own merits as well.
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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Poster: Tseric at 1/4/2006 6:57:45 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mods at least pretend to be consistent. *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
...which involve having to change corporate culture
I don't discount you for wanting to seperate yourself from that. Do you want to criticize me for attempting such a thing?
Original thought is an illusion. Extrapolation FTW.
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