Poster: Grudgebearer at 12/22/2005 10:59:54 PM PST
Subject: Will Warlocks ever != Mage? |
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Will the Warlock style of play ever be a unique experience in this game or are Warlocks forced to be nothing more then mages with more health, less mana, no versatility, no utility and no survivability? Will a Warlocks prefered style of play ever be in a support role using powerful debuffs in conjunction with damage over time spells to bring down or nullify its targets or will there never be a way for DOTs to be a viable alternative to seduce+shadowbolt spam?
The most successful Warlocks are those who are spec'd for nuking. Of course there really is no other way to play the class because DOTs are unreliable and weak, debuffs are mediocre and pets are useless.
Blizzard, please deliver on your promise. The Warlock isn't supposed to be a shadow mage! Make them the debuffers you originally intended!
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Poster: Tseric at 12/23/2005 12:57:23 AM PST
Subject: Re: Will Warlocks ever != Mage? |
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Grudgebearer...I'm not sure how I can present an honest and reasonable opinion without getting flamed by you. Sometimes, a name can say it all...
I shall try and I shall hope for a considerate ear.
Q u o t e:
No versatility: The Warlock is reliant on their pets to the point where having the wrong one out often means death. Thus, the Warlock has an extreme lack of versatility due to their reliance on their pets to be competetive.
It is in the variety of pets that warlocks have an advantage. It is in the foresight of having a particular pet that the warlock is challenged. A spec or build or ability or spell for all seasons is something that no class can claim. It is in the warlock's duty to have a prescient mind to summon or have summoned a pet to serve a particular purpose. Much, if not most, of a warlock's versatility is served through pet selection. This serves for solo/group/raid play and is only accentuated by Master Demonology. As far as basic spells and abilities, there are DoTs, DD spells, CC to fit many (but again, not ALL) situations.
Q u o t e:
No utility: what do you offer a group? Healthstones, Banish in very select situations and a Soul Stone occasionally when all your Shamans have used their reincarnates.
It's true that warlocks have no group/raid buff. Debuffs are the point, here. I would dare to find a warlock that would give up CoS/CoE; useful in any group. And what, you don't like summons? That screams utility. Why should I even mention the raid favorite of the imp's Blood Pact?
And let's be clear here...a soulstone is the best wipe insurance in the game. Shamans may self rez, but warlocks can rez a priest after aggro is dropped from everyone. No comparison.
Q u o t e:
No Survivability: Deathcoil. The list ends there.
Are we agreeing on what survivability means? The fact that a warlocks HP can make rogues and some warriors jealous should be testament enough. A VW sacrifice is solid survivability, especially if you have Fel Domination and can sacrifice again in a short period. In solo-play, warlocks can tank. And, as much as some players would like to discount fear, learn to fear then deathcoil, then fear again. Or maybe just seduce.
I'm guessing (and you're right, this is a total assumption on my part) you went shadow mastery and are trying to play as a mage? Or are you trolling?
Seriously, trying to help, but confused...[ post edited by Tseric ]
I have a question mark.
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Poster: Tseric at 12/23/2005 1:03:02 AM PST
Subject: Re: Will Warlocks ever != Mage? |
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Q u o t e:
tseric you vindictive person, you deleted my post
i will never forgive you.
I stand behind my reasons for doing so :P
Learn2postconstructively
I have a question mark.
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Poster: Tseric at 12/23/2005 1:06:26 AM PST
Subject: Re: Will Warlocks ever != Mage? |
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Q u o t e:
1st RULE: You do not talk about Warlocks
2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about Warlocks
3rd RULE: If mage says stop or gets spell-locked, taps out the duel is over
4th RULE: Only two guys to a fight (as in two against the lock, to be fair)
5th RULE: Only one fight per DC cooldown
6th RULE: No spellstone, no health stone
7th RULE: Fights will go on as long as they have to
8th RULE: If this is your first time as a warlock, you have to summon.
If you post this in the warlock forums, I might just sticky it. might being the operative word. But, hey...you're the winner of this thread anyways.
I have a question mark.
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Poster: Tseric at 12/23/2005 1:56:52 AM PST
Subject: Re: Will Warlocks ever != Mage? |
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Q u o t e:
you may be eating those words come patch 1.9. CoS/CoE will become useful only against players with at least ~35 resistance to either magic school. with the rest, the warlock is usually better off using CoA. PvE, well, yeah, i guess CoS/CoE will be more useful in end game encounters, but a +5% to damage is still pretty paltry. /shrug
I don't eat words, I spit them out. However, I may chew on my foot from time to time...we shall see :P
Q u o t e:
do you mean deathcoil then fear? the problem most warlocks had with fear was getting it off in the first place. deathcoil is precisely what gives us that breathing room to get it off.
Point I'm going for here is, make them pop that trinket or WoTF and then hit them with the DC. Yeah, there is a small window for it, but making people react first is good in PvP. Make them waste a cooldown. Get them on the defensive.
Q u o t e:
anyway, tseric, the OP is a bit clueless but his ultimate point is correct. i played this warlock for several months, extensively (until somewhat recently, when i retired him in favor of a class with a VERY distinctive role--warrior), and i never felt like we filled the role we should have. every other class fills a very distinct role in the game these days EXCEPT warlocks and possibly rogues. warlocks have wonderful group utility but when it comes to actually doing damage, we ARE just shadow mages. that's all there is to it. our prime debuffs are about to get the everliving crap nerfed out of them and your company has yet to turn us into the "master debuffers" they've tried to convince us that we are since day one. give us debuffs, or stop nerfing the ones we have, or give us better nukes, or something.
i mean, talk about mixed messages. are we dps? nukers? debuffers? some bastardization of the two? warlocks everywhere really do want your company to make up its mind.
This game is not going to provide players with a pigeon-holed role. I'm not trying to deride your assessment, but all classes are developed to have versatility. This helps in quickly forming groups, in individual players developing play style and giving players options for any one situation. It does make for more fun. So, yes. You will see a hybridization for many. Some players confuse this with homogenization, except that we still keep a R-P-S balance in mind and no one class has all counters or answers to any given situation.
The here and now encompasses more than here and now.
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Poster: Tseric at 12/23/2005 2:50:45 AM PST
Subject: Re: Will Warlocks ever != Mage? |
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Q u o t e:
Will the Warlock ever live up to its original intent and be the best debuffer in the game?
This is where many players hinge there hopes and dreams on. They expect their particular class to be the best at something. This game is not working on those terms, suffice to say, that if you use the abilities given to their best potential, you will be the best at that "role".
I mean, I already explained why any one class is not going to be the "best" at anything. It's a loaded term and concept. We are going in circles here.
The here and now encompasses more than here and now.
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Poster: Tseric at 12/23/2005 3:41:12 AM PST
Subject: Re: Will Warlocks ever != Mage? |
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Q u o t e:
t-man, maybe i wasnt paying attention before. something you said actually strucka cord with me. i have heard you post about how no one class will be the best at everything. and i have heard lots of players #@%$! about what their class isnt good at. But untill now i never realized that that makes us more versatile in a group. it actually slipped right past me. this game actually has made attempts to get away from the holy triumverate (warrior+priest+mage) and up till now i didnt realize how succesful you have been. looking back i dont think i have been in a PUG that was those three classes. druids heal enough to replace priests in most of my groups. and with the dps output of hunters and locks and rogues, mages are no longer a must have. hell as a pally i have had to mt many a time.
my apologies. i have been #@%$!ing over how the alternate classes werent as good as the holy tri. when i should have apreciated how much better off i was in not being forced into it.
If I only win one over the way I have with you, it was all worth the flames. You will have fun here. Godspeed.
The here and now encompasses more than here and now.
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Poster: Tseric at 12/23/2005 4:14:24 AM PST
Subject: Re: Will Warlocks ever != Mage? |
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Q u o t e:
Are you really saying no class is best at anything? If you are, you have lost all credability. There are definitly classes that are the best at different things.
No. What I'm saying is that if you use that as an argument as to why your class should do one particular thing, you might be missing out on other potential. Point being, warlocks have a great variety of debuffs for many situations. That makes them the best debuffers. To say that that variety of debuffs should do the [most damage/best effect/ better-than-other-class] is opting for pigeon-holeing over versatility.
EDIT- Clarity thru brackets and backslashes and hyphens![ post edited by Tseric ]
The here and now encompasses more than here and now.
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Poster: Tseric at 12/23/2005 4:18:04 AM PST
Subject: Re: Will Warlocks ever != Mage? |
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Q u o t e:
So, Priests aren't expected to be the best healers?
Warriors are expected to be the best tanks?
Ok.
What happens when a priest isn't there? Or a Warrior?
What then? Is your group done for?
The here and now encompasses more than here and now.
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