Poster: Dietauren at 12/7/2005 9:02:27 AM PST
Subject: Caydiem says "Honor system =/= skill" |
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This is not a Caydiem bashing thread. Cay is the best because she communicates the most. I don't need to hear only what I like from Blizz, I just need to hear something as often as possible. Also, no one comes close to Cay in delivering the lore. Cay is great.
I will, however, bash the honor system and what it has done to PvP and WoW. It's ruining the game. The honor system does not belong in a MMORPG. PvP is an important part of a MMORPG, where players' choices are paramount. Bizzard decided to make a MMORPG where players begin the game choosing to join one faction that is competing against another. PvP has really been neglected. PvP has taken a backseat to PvE which isn't the problem. The problem is the neglect. The problem is the quick fixes that are insulting, like the honor system and DHK's.
Below is a quote from Caydiem:
https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6127675&p=1&tmp=1#post6127675
Q u o t e:
There's no simple fix to that, honestly.
Mind, that doesn't mean it's not being seriously looked into, but the problem there is partly player-created and partly something that cannot be resolved without implementing a few other systems or completely rewriting how the game works.
Ideally, the developers want the Honor System to reward skill more than just time investment, and to better reward those fighting more skillful players. They want matchups to be more even and less one-sided. They understand your frustrations, and they're right there with you.
But currently the game has no real way to understand and track the nebulous thing that is "skill" in PvP. The Honor System would need considerable changes for this idea to occur, and as such, it's a long way out there.
But it is being talked about. It is something the developers want to do with the game. It just may take us a while to get there.
I think it is great that teams get organized and try to perfect strategies. It is what I hoped to see when battlegrounds first came out. I think great teams should be playing against other great teams and vying for the top ranks of teams. Teams with the best PvE gear fighting your average PUG is getting close to what's going on when level 60's griefing and camping some new low level players. When your PUG team plays(all ten players really try and win) a match of Warsong and is not even able to score one kill… If the PUG tries to focus fire on a Warrior wearing PvE epics, they won't even take him down before they are all dead.
There's a simple fix to that, honestly.
When you want to enter a battleground, you can join a regular game as an individual and be paired with other individuals and fight against a similar team or you have the option of joining a queue where all the matches give a small amount of bonus honor and groups can join and play together. Normal BG's are for fun and for improving your skills. The Bonus BG is for people who want fierce competition and/or who want to play with friends and guildmates as a group. The bonus honor would only be something like 5 -- 50 extra CP, but never any reward for the losing team. The draw should be fighting against the best.
Q u o t e:
Ideally, the developers want the Honor System to reward skill more than just time investment, and to better reward those fighting more skillful players. They want matchups to be more even and less one-sided.
There's a simple fix to that, honestly.
Tone down the gear. If not the defense and the stamina, then tone down the DPS on epic gear. Being two shotted is not fun. Make the gear really cool looking. Make different colors or the ability to change the color of equipment. Make the gear glow.
Make more PvE raid gear give bonuses vs dragons and demons and other mobs, but not against other paying customers. Unless you, Blizzard, can keep the uber gear out of the hands of cheaters and/or people who buy accounts on Ebay, don't make the uber gear so so uber, making the artificial ubermensch or uberorc unassailable
Having a Rank 14 is really stupid to begin with and is just another example why the entire honor system should be scrapped. Bizz says they want PvP to be team based, there are too many avenues for players to screw over their teammates for personal gain in this honor system. Too many ways to prosper by being dishonorable in this honor system.
Q u o t e:
But currently the game has no real way to understand and track the nebulous thing that is "skill" in PvP. The Honor System would need considerable changes for this idea to occur, and as such, it's a long way out there.
{There have been many forum posters who could not get this through their heads when they tried to defend the Honor system. It is so glaringly obvious when playing the game, but not in the malaise of this forum.}
There's a simple fix to that, honestly.
As mentioned above:
1)stop giving out such ridiculous phat lewtz 2)make more than one queue
Ranks are great, gear is not. Tough competition is great, steamrolling is not. (even more so, good teams AFK out of a match unless they are facing an easily beatable PUG.)
When players are defeating good players they will go up in rank. The highest ranks will not be obtainable by steamrolling noobs. Less gear dependence would mean more thinking and planning. There is still luck involved, but even now you can play BG's all weekend and say "man a few players really stood out and played better."
Plus the honor system you have implemented is the reason you need quick fixes like the ten minute rule or debuff…they are band aids on a gaping would.
If you want to stop exploits:
-try seeing if the losing team caught a bunch of fish
-try seeing if the losing team even tried to play
Spend some of our money Blizzard. Have a few people observe random BG's all day long. If players are exploiting and cheating, delete that character forever. Don't make blanket rules/changes that sometimes punish players who never ever did anything wrong. Hell, get some interns for free in to watch BG matches and look for cheaters.
Q u o t e:
But it is being talked about. It is something the developers want to do with the game. It just may take us a while to get there.
CROSS SERVER BATTLEGROUND QUEUES (with no trading gold and most items, of course0
That way there would be more viable options for queuing to battlegrounds. Choices like "officer only", ranks 1-5 only. I always thought class only queues would be fun for a little variety. An all warrior Arathi Basin would play a lot different than an all mage match. Let us have some fun! Have an option to join a queue where one side is composed of a single class to compete against a team composed entirely of another class! Paladins vs Shamans !! There are so many variations if Blizz would just implement Cross server Battlegrounds. Make it a priority over fishing contests and new raid dungeons please.
I know Cross server BGs is not simple or quick fix, but it has to be done. Stop neglecting PvP. If you want to control our choices so heavily with regards to PvP, don't insult us by making us wait in queues and get rid of the insult that is the current incarnation of your Honor Farming system.
If at first you don't succeed, don't try sky diving.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6140770&p=#post6140770 | | | Poster: Caydiem at 12/7/2005 10:15:02 AM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem says "Honor system =/= skill" |
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None of that is simple, actually.
The simplest thing you mentioned is to pair "Join as Group" with others who use the feature, and put individuals in their own. However, there are concerns with this method. The field doesn't consist entirely of pick up groups and incredibly organized teams. There's a middle ground. The teams had to practice together quite a bit to get to that stage. It's much harder to learn when you're being crushed, and thus the powerful remain powerful while the unskilled remain unskilled. There's not nearly as much chance to "learn2play" in such a system, I'm afraid; joining as individuals will not allow you to get with the same people each time, thus seriously stunting any practice. In addition, it would cause queue problems for the people in Join As Group, as there are scant few people who would play the game that way.
Battlegrounds are about teamwork, and we don't want to discourage group play.
Now then.
Retuning gear in the manner you stated is about the most complex and difficult thing you could have possibly suggested aside from rewriting the entire game. Hardly "simple." In order to do what you stated, we would not only have to go through the entire item database to implement those tweaks, but also retune every single encounter in the game and every single class for spells, abilities, health, etc. to compensate. I rarely speak in absolutes, but that won't be happening.
Cross-realm battleground queues are in consideration already, but it requires tech that isn't in place, so no, again, not simple. ;) Also, the game "detecting" things like how much fish they caught in a given time -- and acting on it -- is not something that could be implemented currently, and is in fact another quick fix you seem not to like very much.
To address the whole issue...
The Honor System and PvP is being reviewed, but the fruits of such labor will not come for some time. I appreciate your feedback, but it's not time yet. No, the Honor System isn't going to be scrapped, but it will be reworked, with the objective being to reward skill. That's a long time coming, however. Just because we add these fixes to aid the worst of the symptoms doesn't mean we're not treating the problem at large... we are, but it's going to take a while.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6140770&p=#post6142058 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/7/2005 10:28:52 AM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem says "Honor system =/= skill" |
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Q u o t e:
Awesome, awesome and awesome. Can you bring back World PvP while you're at it?
The developers will fish out their cudgels if I give details, but yes, they're working to bring world PvP back, too. :)
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6140770&p=#post6142300 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/7/2005 10:15:02 AM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem says "Honor system =/= skill" *edited post* |
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None of that is simple, actually.
The simplest thing you mentioned is to pair "Join as Group" with others who use the feature, and put individuals in their own. However, there are concerns with this method. The field doesn't consist entirely of pick up groups and incredibly organized teams. There's a middle ground. The teams had to practice together quite a bit to get to that stage. It's much harder to learn when you're being crushed, and thus the powerful remain powerful while the unskilled remain unskilled. There's not nearly as much chance to "learn2play" in such a system, I'm afraid; joining as individuals will not allow you to get with the same people each time, thus seriously stunting any practice. In addition, it would cause queue problems for the people in Join As Group, as there are scant few people who would play the game that way.
Battlegrounds are about teamwork, and we don't want to discourage group play.
Now then.
Retuning gear in the manner you stated is about the most complex and difficult thing you could have possibly suggested aside from rewriting the entire game. Hardly "simple." In order to do what you stated, we would not only have to go through the entire item database to implement those tweaks, but also retune every single encounter in the game and every single class for spells, abilities, health, etc. to compensate. I rarely speak in absolutes, but that won't be happening.
Cross-realm battleground queues are in consideration already, but it requires tech that isn't in place, so no, again, not simple. ;) Also, the game "detecting" things like how much fish they caught in a given time -- and acting on it -- is not something that could be implemented currently, and is in fact another quick fix you seem not to like very much.
To address the whole issue...
The Honor System and PvP is being reviewed, but the fruits of such labor will not come for some time. I appreciate your feedback, but it's not time yet. No, the Honor System isn't going to be scrapped, but it will be reworked, with the objective being to reward skill. That's a long time coming, however. Just because we add these fixes to aid the worst of the symptoms doesn't mean we're not treating the problem at large... we are, but it's going to take a while.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6140770&p=#post6142058 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/7/2005 10:28:52 AM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem says "Honor system =/= skill" *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Awesome, awesome and awesome. Can you bring back World PvP while you're at it?
The developers will fish out their cudgels if I give details, but yes, they're working to bring world PvP back, too. :)
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6140770&p=#post6142300 |
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