Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 4:59:49 PM PST
Subject: 1.8.4 Ten Minute Rule - FYI |
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I will endeavor to clear up the controversy and confusion surrounding the "ten-minute rule."
The idea that players would have to remain in battlegrounds for ten minutes before they'd receive a Mark of Honor for losing was one the developers were seriously considering as an effort to reduce the incentive players had to lose a battle quickly. The concept was simple: it would give players incentive to try and stay in, rather than giving up and allowing a quick loss without any effort expended. However, during further discussions, it was decided that adding a mild punishment to those who /afk out of battlegrounds, in the form of a requeue timer (Deserter debuff), would be preferable to the old "ten-minute rule" idea. In addition, since the problem was primarily found in Arathi Basin matches held during the Arathi Basin "holiday," the developers chose to improve the way in which bonus honor was awarded during Arathi Basin holidays rather than institute the ten-minute rule.
The ten-minute rule had been implemented as part of 1.9, and was set to be removed from 1.9 as the Deserter debuff was put in place. Unfortunately, because 1.8.4 was developed simultaneously with 1.9, the ten-minute rule had actually made its way into 1.8.4 too (which was tested and signed off upon some time ago, around the time this change was being implemented). As such, the ten-minute rule mistakenly went live.
This was not intended by our development team, and we sincerely apologize for the inconvenience. The ten-minute rule does not exist on the patch 1.9 test versions that have been on the test realms for some time now (with the exception of Warsong Gulch, which is being fixed), reflecting the fact that the Deserter debuff was intended as a replacement rather than an addition to this mechanic. We intend to fix this bug in a server-side hotfix soon.
Thank you for your patience throughout this. We're keeping a close eye on PvP, battlegrounds, and the Honor System, and will continue to make changes as warranted.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6133189&p=#post6133189 | | | Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 8:09:08 PM PST
Subject: Re: 1.8.4 Ten Minute Rule - FYI |
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Q u o t e:
Sorry Cay, but this reeks heavily of PR backpeddling due to massive public outcry...
I'm going to be as forthright as I possibly can, here.
You folks always gripe that we can't "admit when we make mistakes".
We made a mistake.
It was mistakenly kept in 1.8.4. We hadn't looked at the patch for a while -- it was tested, signed off on, and kept in the wings in case it looked like 1.9 might not make the holiday cutoff.
We're apologizing for it here. We're fixing it as soon as we can manage.
It's not the best situation, certainly, but we're doing what we can to make amends.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6133189&p=#post6133352 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 4:59:49 PM PST
Subject: 1.8.4 Ten Minute Rule - FYI *edited post* |
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I will endeavor to clear up the controversy and confusion surrounding the "ten-minute rule."
The idea that players would have to remain in battlegrounds for ten minutes before they'd receive a Mark of Honor for losing was one the developers were seriously considering as an effort to reduce the incentive players had to lose a battle quickly. The concept was simple: it would give players incentive to try and stay in, rather than giving up and allowing a quick loss without any effort expended. However, during further discussions, it was decided that adding a mild punishment to those who /afk out of battlegrounds, in the form of a requeue timer (Deserter debuff), would be preferable to the old "ten-minute rule" idea. In addition, since the problem was primarily found in Arathi Basin matches held during the Arathi Basin "holiday," the developers chose to improve the way in which bonus honor was awarded during Arathi Basin holidays rather than institute the ten-minute rule.
The ten-minute rule had been implemented as part of 1.9, and was set to be removed from 1.9 as the Deserter debuff was put in place. Unfortunately, because 1.8.4 was developed simultaneously with 1.9, the ten-minute rule had actually made its way into 1.8.4 too (which was tested and signed off upon some time ago, around the time this change was being implemented). As such, the ten-minute rule mistakenly went live.
This was not intended by our development team, and we sincerely apologize for the inconvenience. The ten-minute rule does not exist on the patch 1.9 test versions that have been on the test realms for some time now (with the exception of Warsong Gulch, which is being fixed), reflecting the fact that the Deserter debuff was intended as a replacement rather than an addition to this mechanic. We intend to fix this bug in a server-side hotfix soon.
Thank you for your patience throughout this. We're keeping a close eye on PvP, battlegrounds, and the Honor System, and will continue to make changes as warranted.
(EDIT: Further answers in the thread, for those seeking blue: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6135121&tmp=1#post6135121)[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6133189&p=#post6133189 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 10:39:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: 1.8.4 Ten Minute Rule - FYI |
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To answer a few questions:
"Why was it a 'mistake' if it was in the 1.8.4 patch notes?"
1.8.4 was not recently developed; it has been waiting in the wings, a potential patch primarily for holiday content that was set to go live if 1.9 looked like it might not make it in time. As we tend to do with such small patches, we also put in a few small changes to the game in other ways. 1.8.4 was developed around the same time as the first part of the conversation as noted; thus the ten minute rule went in. It was tested, signed off on, and approved before the ten minute rule was pulled and the Deserter debuff implemented. The patch notes were also written before then. Focus switched solely to 1.9, and yes, it was forgotten that we'd added that bit to 1.8.4 as well, since it was viewed as the "Holiday Patch".
There's no need to retest a patch that's already been approved by QA. 1.9 looked like it was running long, so we put that patch implementation in place, and remembered too late that this addition had been in there as well.
"How is it, then, that you received an explanation for why it was implemented from the developers when it wasn't supposed to be implemented?"
A large amount of data runs through our hands on any given day. I asked Kalgan plainly what the reasoning was behind the ten minute rule in Battlegrounds, and he told me, which I then related to you. I'm sure he could tell me about any number of mechanics that almost made it into the game but didn't if I asked him first thing in the morning. Shortly after I spoke to him he ran back down to me, saying it shouldn't have been implemented at all, and explained what happened. Instead of simply announcing a hotfix later, he and I wrote up the above message with the explanations therein.
This isn't attempting to pull the wool over your eyes. We're human. We made a mistake. Our hotfix team is working to correct it as I type this.
If you need any more clarification on the above points, let me know.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6133189&p=#post6135121 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 10:44:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: 1.8.4 Ten Minute Rule - FYI |
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Q u o t e:
Here's the really hilarious part - even after screwing up so badly you still haven't done enough testing to realize that the problem isn't just the "Ten Minute Rule" never intended to go live, it's that there ARE NO LOSER TOKENS WHATSOEVER REGARDLESS OF THE LENGTH OF THE GAME.
Brilliant. Brilliant and priceless.
...which we already mentioned is being fixed. :P
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6133189&p=#post6135181 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 10:53:49 PM PST
Subject: Re: 1.8.4 Ten Minute Rule - FYI |
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Also, while we're "owning up"...
I wrote the 1.8.4 Patch Notes.
I wrote them about a month ago, when this was all still in contention.
The patch notes were done, localized in all the languages we support, and shelved as a completed project as I went on and juggled my dozen other projects of a given week. The patch notes aren't written right before it's patched. The Web Team, who posts the patch notes on the website, don't necessarily know what should or should not be in a given patch. The developers have already seen the patch notes and so have I at this point -- several times -- and they're also hard-coded into the patch itself. That was all done ages ago; patch notes aren't the same as developer logs, and they're not reviewed weekly when no new changes have come down the pipe for them.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6133189&p=#post6135334 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:08:06 PM PST
Subject: Re: 1.8.4 Ten Minute Rule - FYI |
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Q u o t e:
Yeah. The "mistake" was when you decided the best response to consumer complaints was deletion of posts, and when you decided that the best way to cover up for the inclusion of a buggy feature that EVERYONE hated was to claim that it was a "mistake", despite the fact that you publicized it as a feature BEFORE it went live.
The mistake is that you respond with open hostility to the paying customers who make your job possible. The mistake is that you resort to censorship and fear instead of directly addressing customer concerns. The mistake is that you're currently making Sony look like a paragon of humility and Good Service.
The mistake is that instead of addressing any of these issues, you're going to censor more posts, ban more customers, and accuse more of us of "griping" whenever we try and give input.
What?
I deleted one post today about this. One. Do you know what post it was?
It was a post saying my personal thoughts on why it was implemented, and also a remark that I was going to check up on this issue with the developers.
My personal guess was wrong. There are some (hope that's a bit more accurate. ;) ) who feel that my language obfuscates things as-is, so I didn't want to muddy the waters with multiple "blue" explanations of why it existed when I was incorrect. So I deleted my guess -- which was clearly stated as my personal belief, I'll note -- and responded on a different thread.
If other threads have been deleted about this, it is because they violated the Code of Conduct to which you agreed upon first posting here, but I didn't do it.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6133189&p=#post6135478 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:12:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: 1.8.4 Ten Minute Rule - FYI |
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Q u o t e:
The patch being done before 1.9 started getting worked on or before it hit the PTR makes sense, but there's still one more hurdle to overcome:
The notes were put last night, why did no one in that office go "Um, that's not supposed to be there..." and take it out? If it was too late to do so when it was noticed, fine, no biggie, but if it wasn't noticed at all before the game went down for maitnenance, hot damn that's a problem. @_@
The Web Team doesn't know what should or shouldn't be in a patch. I stare at the patch notes for days on end when I'm writing them, and the last thing I want to look at are the patch notes when they go live. (Plus I had no knowledge of this change in any case, so my looking at them wouldn't be any help.) As for the developers, again, they didn't think anything of the kind was in the patch; hindsight's 20/20, to be sure, but if they were certain it was just the holiday patch, what reason had they to review the patch notes? Obviously now we can say it was something they should have done, but again, that's hindsight.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6133189&p=#post6135514 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:27:16 PM PST
Subject: Re: 1.8.4 Ten Minute Rule - FYI |
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Q u o t e:
I don't buy that the 10 minute rule wasn't intended. Based on the patch notes it obviously was at some point. Someone just screwed up the patch killing all honor for those that lose and so now there is a damage control attempt. Sorry it ain't flyin'. If you had at least squeezed in the 10 lousy bottles of water I would be more inclined to feel forgiving.
Yes, it was intended to go in at some point. It was implemented into the game, clearly, so at one point it was absolutely planned to go live. Then it was rethought and replace. I'm sorry if I made that unclear, but we changed our minds on it before anything was scheduled to go live; unfortunately it wasn't removed from every branch, just the most current.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6133189&p=#post6135648 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 4:59:49 PM PST
Subject: 1.8.4 Ten Minute Rule - FYI *edited post* |
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I will endeavor to clear up the controversy and confusion surrounding the "ten-minute rule."
The idea that players would have to remain in battlegrounds for ten minutes before they'd receive a Mark of Honor for losing was one the developers were seriously considering as an effort to reduce the incentive players had to lose a battle quickly. The concept was simple: it would give players incentive to try and stay in, rather than giving up and allowing a quick loss without any effort expended. However, during further discussions, it was decided that adding a mild punishment to those who /afk out of battlegrounds, in the form of a requeue timer (Deserter debuff), would be preferable to the old "ten-minute rule" idea. In addition, since the problem was primarily found in Arathi Basin matches held during the Arathi Basin "holiday," the developers chose to improve the way in which bonus honor was awarded during Arathi Basin holidays rather than institute the ten-minute rule.
The ten-minute rule had been implemented as part of 1.9, and was set to be removed from 1.9 as the Deserter debuff was put in place. Unfortunately, because 1.8.4 was developed simultaneously with 1.9, the ten-minute rule had actually made its way into 1.8.4 too (which was tested and signed off upon some time ago, around the time this change was being implemented). As such, the ten-minute rule mistakenly went live.
This was not intended by our development team, and we sincerely apologize for the inconvenience. The ten-minute rule does not exist on the patch 1.9 test versions that have been on the test realms for some time now (with the exception of Warsong Gulch, which is being fixed), reflecting the fact that the Deserter debuff was intended as a replacement rather than an addition to this mechanic. We intend to fix this bug in a server-side hotfix soon.
Thank you for your patience throughout this. We're keeping a close eye on PvP, battlegrounds, and the Honor System, and will continue to make changes as warranted.
(EDIT: Further answers in the thread, for those seeking blue -- please read them, as they cover the most common questions being asked, such as "Why was it in the patch notes?" and "Why did you post an explanation of why it was made earlier that day then?" http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6135121&tmp=1#post6135121)[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
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