Poster: Colossus at 11/28/2005 2:17:51 PM PST
Subject: blizzard poster - cliff-walking |
| |
Good afternoon blues. Welcome back. How was your thanksgiving weekend? I have and small issue that I would love to get a bit of information about. Why was cliff-walking removed from the game? I understand that people were using it in battlegrounds to abuse other players. But outside of the game people did amazing things with this ability. They managed to take the game into their own hands and find a way to entertain themselves outside of the normal flow of the game in grinding and quests. Given some people were getting to some places they probably shouldn't be. But that is taken care of with the gaurdians of blizzard. Why would you not encourage this type of play style. People that strive to find things hidden from regular players. You should encourage it, hide more things for the players to find. Not nail them to the ground. Why can you not just keep this effect in battlegrounds? Many people enjoy this aspect of the game and think it should stay. Is there any way we can get it back?
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6005811 |
| |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/28/2005 2:39:48 PM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking |
| |
*sigh*
I'm an explorer myself, and I understand where you're coming from in principle, but I feel the need to explain...
These places were not meant to be accessed by players. The terrain was sloped specifically so that players could not get to these areas by normal means. You can't simply plonk giant death-touching infernals everywhere you don't want people to be. Places like the Ironforge Airport or the Dancing Troll Village are there for aesthetic value, which would be rather ruined by a large, angry infernal there glaring at everyone. That is why the terrain was made as it is around those areas.
Now, I completely understand the desire to defend the act of cliff-walking, but I want you to step back for a second and look at it objectively -- cliff-walking is the act of hitting a very steep slope at juuuuust the right angle so you don't fall down. If you hit it normally, you would slide to the bottom. That is an exploit, as it's doing something that goes against the proper game mechanics (in this case, the steep slope stopping people from gaining access to these areas). It's a small exploit, mind -- nothing horrendous or game-breaking -- but it's an exploit nonetheless.
As such, I want you to understand that there's no way that we should allow this exploit to remain in the game. It does cause some problems in PvP -- accessing areas you should not in order to gain an advantage over the enemy. Yes, exploring is fun, and it's one of my personal joys in these games, but this particular method of exploration was never meant to exist and cannot be condoned.
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6006316 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/28/2005 5:26:04 PM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking |
| |
Q u o t e:
sounds like your sick of replying to stupid posts. why dont you quit your job. kek kek
Orrrr I'm an avid explorer in these games and sympathize, which is what I voiced. :P
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6009397 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/29/2005 1:10:05 PM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking |
| |
Folks, I understand where you're coming from, but I want you to understand that cliff-walking is an exploit. It's not a harmful one, but it is indeed an exploit and causes more harm than benefit -- it will be removed. I cannot advocate to the developers to keep an exploit in the game. They know how you feel, certainly, but that does not change what the act of cliff-walking is and what problems it was causing. Adding/changing the geometry is more difficult, time-consuming, and rather pointless when the correct course of action is to fix the bug allowing characters to be able to walk on steep slopes in the first place. It is not at all an intended mechanic, and there are no plans to make it so.
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6023799 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/29/2005 1:42:51 PM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking |
| |
Q u o t e:
Some parts of WoW, Like the cave above WC, Can only be accesable through it. The cave a little above WC me and my sister had tried to get to but only found the way up through Cliff-walking. I am not sure but other parts that are needed to be gotten to could only be gotten to by This method. How else would we get to certain places we need to?
Why not just remove Wall climbing on the certain Areas that are ment to have no getting to like the true desolace or that Vendor in Sithilus? minor areas like the Airport people would like to experience getting to. If you take this out, this game would be world of pvpcraft and no exploration above the normal places that we get on our maps. I would rather explore places that make me feel proud then press spells onto other players all day.
There is a perfectly legitimate, non-cliff-walking way of getting to that cave above Wailing Caverns, in fact. I've never once had to cliff-walk to get there with all the Horde characters I've levelled.
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6024450 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/29/2005 8:10:50 PM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking |
| |
You haven't heard complaints regarding cliff-walking?
Sure, you haven't heard any about the airport, but how about...
...the complaints of Alliance mysteriously sniping from atop Orgrimmar in places no character was meant to go, able to grab quick honorable kills from the players still flagged in town without risk?
...the issues with the Dancing Troll Village and the WorldDefense being spammed for Horde regarding Darkshore? (Those trolls aren't being killed for the heck of it.)
...the multitude of issues surrounding certain areas in Battlegrounds and the impact of this on PvP rankings/balance?
Sorry folks. I know a lot of you utilize this "skill" (and it does take skill, make no mistake) benignly with no intent to exploit or grief, but a lot of people do exploit it. We can't simply "disable it in Battlegrounds". It's a physics issue, and if it's fixed in one place, it's fixed everywhere.
I apparently can't stress this enough: the developers never meant for you to get to those areas. You are doing something the developers did not intend. Please do not be surprised or outraged when they change it so that you once again cannot reach these areas where you were not intended to go at all. The developers are not going to come up with an alternative to wall-walking to fix the exploitable areas when wall-walking itself is the problem. It is being fixed right, completely, around the entire game world. I know that isn't agreeable to some of you, but that's simply how it stands.
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6029972 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/29/2005 9:40:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking |
| |
Cowslip, please, you're taking this a little too far.
The developers aren't affronted, offended, or taking this personally in the slightest. You folks are very clever to have used the wall-walking ability to get up to places like the airport, and it's great that you enjoy it, but exploring is not the primary problem.
The problem is that this ability has been used -- increasingly so in recent times -- to exploit a number of game mechanics, most notably in PvP. It can't be ignored any longer and steps need to be taken to prevent said exploits. As time has gone on, it's gone from a secret a select few understood how to accomplish to a large enough problem that steps need to be taken.
So they are being taken.
I know you don't want this method of exploration to end. I understand where you're coming from. I love that thrill of discovery, that feeling of accomplishment myself. As I said, I'm an explorer. I don't know how much time I spent attempting to get up to that cave between Mulgore and the Barrens, for example. I know the love of exploration, and I know it can be disappointing when a method like this -- hard to achieve, and incredibly fulfilling when successful -- goes away.
But the fact remains that it is a bug in the grand scheme of things, an exploit. And if it's causing problems, something has to be done about it. Yes, you enjoy it, and they know that, but it doesn't change the fact that if it can be used to exploit in some areas, it's bound to be used as an exploit in newer areas. QA needs to spend their time testing slightly more important game content than wall walking. And if it's causing problems now and has the potential to cause further problems in the future, the practical choice, however disappointing, is to remove the problematic bug entirely.
So that is what is happening.
Enjoy your last climbs; watch the sunset over the airport one last time. The cliff-walking exploit is being removed due to the other problems it caused, not the exploration. The reason why I'm stressing that the developers never meant for you to go there is that "exploring places like the airport" is not a valid argument to keep it in for the developers. It's not the reason they're removing it, but by the same token, it can't logically be used as a counter-argument for keeping it in. That's the point I'm attempting to drive home.
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6030867 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/29/2005 10:36:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking |
| |
Q u o t e:
HOW DO YOU FIGURE?!?!!?! Take it out of BGs done, harm removed.
It's a physics thing. It can't be "taken out of battlegrounds". It's an all or nothing deal. I've explained this several times.
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6031535 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/30/2005 12:37:14 AM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking |
| |
Q u o t e:
Yet another reason why there should be an ongoing test server for them to play with. If there was one, wall walking glitches would have been found long before bgs even made it to live servers. I am convinced that blizzards internal testers just can't find stuff like that the way we the playing public can.
They find a great deal of things, but our QA team against 4.5 million players? Yes, I do believe people will find some things they don't. This is why we patch the game and fix bugs. ;)
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6032469 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/28/2005 2:39:48 PM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking *edited post* |
| |
*sigh*
I'm an explorer myself, and I understand where you're coming from in principle, but I feel the need to explain...
These places were not meant to be accessed by players. The terrain was sloped specifically so that players could not get to these areas by normal means. You can't simply plonk giant death-touching infernals everywhere you don't want people to be. Places like the Ironforge Airport or the Dancing Troll Village are there for aesthetic value, which would be rather ruined by a large, angry infernal there glaring at everyone. That is why the terrain was made as it is around those areas.
Now, I completely understand the desire to defend the act of cliff-walking, but I want you to step back for a second and look at it objectively -- cliff-walking is the act of hitting a very steep slope at juuuuust the right angle so you don't fall down. If you hit it normally, you would slide to the bottom. That is an exploit, as it's doing something that goes against the proper game mechanics (in this case, the steep slope stopping people from gaining access to these areas). It's a small exploit, mind -- nothing horrendous or game-breaking -- but it's an exploit nonetheless.
As such, I want you to understand that there's no way that we should allow this exploit to remain in the game. It does cause some problems in PvP -- accessing areas you should not in order to gain an advantage over the enemy. Yes, exploring is fun, and it's one of my personal joys in these games, but this particular method of exploration was never meant to exist and cannot be condoned.
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6006316 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/28/2005 5:26:04 PM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
sounds like your sick of replying to stupid posts. why dont you quit your job. kek kek
Orrrr I'm an avid explorer in these games and sympathize, which is what I voiced. :P
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6009397 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/29/2005 1:10:05 PM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking *edited post* |
| |
Folks, I understand where you're coming from, but I want you to understand that cliff-walking is an exploit. It's not a harmful one, but it is indeed an exploit and causes more harm than benefit -- it will be removed. I cannot advocate to the developers to keep an exploit in the game. They know how you feel, certainly, but that does not change what the act of cliff-walking is and what problems it was causing. Adding/changing the geometry is more difficult, time-consuming, and rather pointless when the correct course of action is to fix the bug allowing characters to be able to walk on steep slopes in the first place. It is not at all an intended mechanic, and there are no plans to make it so.
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6023799 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/29/2005 1:42:51 PM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Some parts of WoW, Like the cave above WC, Can only be accesable through it. The cave a little above WC me and my sister had tried to get to but only found the way up through Cliff-walking. I am not sure but other parts that are needed to be gotten to could only be gotten to by This method. How else would we get to certain places we need to?
Why not just remove Wall climbing on the certain Areas that are ment to have no getting to like the true desolace or that Vendor in Sithilus? minor areas like the Airport people would like to experience getting to. If you take this out, this game would be world of pvpcraft and no exploration above the normal places that we get on our maps. I would rather explore places that make me feel proud then press spells onto other players all day.
There is a perfectly legitimate, non-cliff-walking way of getting to that cave above Wailing Caverns, in fact. I've never once had to cliff-walk to get there with all the Horde characters I've levelled.
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6024450 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/29/2005 8:10:50 PM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking *edited post* |
| |
You haven't heard complaints regarding cliff-walking?
Sure, you haven't heard any about the airport, but how about...
...the complaints of Alliance mysteriously sniping from atop Orgrimmar in places no character was meant to go, able to grab quick honorable kills from the players still flagged in town without risk?
...the issues with the Dancing Troll Village and the WorldDefense being spammed for Horde regarding Darkshore? (Those trolls aren't being killed for the heck of it.)
...the multitude of issues surrounding certain areas in Battlegrounds and the impact of this on PvP rankings/balance?
Sorry folks. I know a lot of you utilize this "skill" (and it does take skill, make no mistake) benignly with no intent to exploit or grief, but a lot of people do exploit it. We can't simply "disable it in Battlegrounds". It's a physics issue, and if it's fixed in one place, it's fixed everywhere.
I apparently can't stress this enough: the developers never meant for you to get to those areas. You are doing something the developers did not intend. Please do not be surprised or outraged when they change it so that you once again cannot reach these areas where you were not intended to go at all. The developers are not going to come up with an alternative to wall-walking to fix the exploitable areas when wall-walking itself is the problem. It is being fixed right, completely, around the entire game world. I know that isn't agreeable to some of you, but that's simply how it stands.
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6029972 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/29/2005 9:40:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking *edited post* |
| |
Cowslip, please, you're taking this a little too far.
The developers aren't affronted, offended, or taking this personally in the slightest. You folks are very clever to have used the wall-walking ability to get up to places like the airport, and it's great that you enjoy it, but exploring is not the primary problem.
The problem is that this ability has been used -- increasingly so in recent times -- to exploit a number of game mechanics, most notably in PvP. It can't be ignored any longer and steps need to be taken to prevent said exploits. As time has gone on, it's gone from a secret a select few understood how to accomplish to a large enough problem that steps need to be taken.
So they are being taken.
I know you don't want this method of exploration to end. I understand where you're coming from. I love that thrill of discovery, that feeling of accomplishment myself. As I said, I'm an explorer. I don't know how much time I spent attempting to get up to that cave between Mulgore and the Barrens, for example. I know the love of exploration, and I know it can be disappointing when a method like this -- hard to achieve, and incredibly fulfilling when successful -- goes away.
But the fact remains that it is a bug in the grand scheme of things, an exploit. And if it's causing problems, something has to be done about it. Yes, you enjoy it, and they know that, but it doesn't change the fact that if it can be used to exploit in some areas, it's bound to be used as an exploit in newer areas. QA needs to spend their time testing slightly more important game content than wall walking. And if it's causing problems now and has the potential to cause further problems in the future, the practical choice, however disappointing, is to remove the problematic bug entirely.
So that is what is happening.
Enjoy your last climbs; watch the sunset over the airport one last time. The cliff-walking exploit is being removed due to the other problems it caused, not the exploration. The reason why I'm stressing that the developers never meant for you to go there is that "exploring places like the airport" is not a valid argument to keep it in for the developers. It's not the reason they're removing it, but by the same token, it can't logically be used as a counter-argument for keeping it in. That's the point I'm attempting to drive home.
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6030867 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/29/2005 10:36:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
HOW DO YOU FIGURE?!?!!?! Take it out of BGs done, harm removed.
It's a physics thing. It can't be "taken out of battlegrounds". It's an all or nothing deal. I've explained this several times.
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6031535 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/30/2005 12:37:14 AM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Yet another reason why there should be an ongoing test server for them to play with. If there was one, wall walking glitches would have been found long before bgs even made it to live servers. I am convinced that blizzards internal testers just can't find stuff like that the way we the playing public can.
They find a great deal of things, but our QA team against 4.5 million players? Yes, I do believe people will find some things they don't. This is why we patch the game and fix bugs. ;)
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6032469 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 10:21:38 AM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking |
| |
I've said it about three times in this thread, but for the late-comers' benefit, it's an exploit that causes serious harm PvP-wise. Most notably in Battlegrounds, but there are ways to get atop Orgrimmar and snipe, for example. Thus it is a harmful exploit and is being removed. This isn't up for debate, I'm afraid.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6124509 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 10:21:38 AM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking *edited post* |
| |
I've said it about three times in this thread, but for the late-comers' benefit, it's an exploit that causes serious harm PvP-wise. Most notably in Battlegrounds, but there are ways to get atop Orgrimmar and snipe, for example. Thus it is a harmful exploit and is being removed. This isn't up for debate, I'm afraid.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6124509 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/14/2005 1:17:24 AM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking |
| |
I've spoken with the developers about it. It's going to be a global change to the physics, and they have no interest in doing it any other way. They understand your playstyle, but as I have said in this thread a hundred times...
It is an unintended bug. It is not a feature. It never was.
You've found enjoyment in it, and I think that's great, but it's been abused, and as such, it's being removed. Changing specific parts of the world geometry is harder than you may first suppose, and still opens future areas up to having this problem. This is something that QA would have to spend a long time in addition to their usual tests to resolve -- and there are, honestly, better things to be testing in that space of time.
Because it's easily exploitable and becoming more and more frequent, it's being removed entirely. Yes, it does hurt the game. You may not be hurting it personally, but there are ways to exploit this ability, giving you a notable advantage in both world PvP and Battlegrounds.
Sorry, folks, but this isn't up for debate. I've explained your case, but they're not keeping it in in any way, shape, or form, and it appears to be utterly final. (You know I don't use absolutes unless I'm very, very confident in what I'm saying.)
The developers are keeping explorers in mind when crafting new places, and some of the ideas they've spoken about sound ideal, but they will not be preserving the cliff-walking exploit in any way.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6229481 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/14/2005 1:17:24 AM PST
Subject: Re: blizzard poster - cliff-walking *edited post* |
| |
I've spoken with the developers about it. It's going to be a global change to the physics, and they have no interest in doing it any other way. They understand your playstyle, but as I have said in this thread a hundred times...
It is an unintended bug. It is not a feature. It never was.
You've found enjoyment in it, and I think that's great, but it's been abused, and as such, it's being removed. Changing specific parts of the world geometry is harder than you may first suppose, and still opens future areas up to having this problem. This is something that QA would have to spend a long time in addition to their usual tests to resolve -- and there are, honestly, better things to be testing in that space of time.
Because it's easily exploitable and becoming more and more frequent, it's being removed entirely. Yes, it does hurt the game. You may not be hurting it personally, but there are ways to exploit this ability, giving you a notable advantage in both world PvP and Battlegrounds.
Sorry, folks, but this isn't up for debate. I've explained your case, but they're not keeping it in in any way, shape, or form, and it appears to be utterly final. (You know I don't use absolutes unless I'm very, very confident in what I'm saying.)
The developers are keeping explorers in mind when crafting new places, and some of the ideas they've spoken about sound ideal, but they will not be preserving the cliff-walking exploit in any way.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005811&p=#post6229481 |
