Poster: Reddakka at 11/25/2005 3:48:48 PM PST
Subject: Storing shards isnt the problem, gathering is |
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Due to a comment made by the great CM Tseric, i have created a new thread.
Since the advent of soul shard bags, which really should stop the requests that they should stack etc due to their large size, the problem isn't storing the shards but gathering them in the first place.
To take an example, i arrived at an onyxia-raid with my guild and only had 3 shards to my name at the time (with none of the mobs cloes around elidgable for giving me shards). When it was learned that a warlock had arrived at the site of the raid, and the floodgates of requests for summons came, i had to turn all of them down.
People saying the new bags will be too small have their prioritys wrong, in that it would take in excess of 1/2 an hour to full the new bags not including travel to and from a relevant lvl 48 and above zone.
This could be solved in a multitude of ways. Soul fountains next to warlock trainers in every major city we could lock our drain-soul onto, 2 soulshards gathered per kill, more spells that give souls etc etc. The shard bag has cleanly sidestepped this issue and no doubt put warlocks on the back shelf again in terms of concerns for the developers. This saddens me.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5968690&p=#post5968690 | | | Poster: Tseric at 11/25/2005 4:10:40 PM PST
Subject: Re: Storing shards isnt the problem, gatherin |
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Q u o t e:
From a thread of mine on the Warlock board,
I've been away for the day and I just log in. I have 20 minutes to get to a BWL raid, and I'm already in Kargath. Problem? I have 7 shards left from the previous night. I miss my on-time DKP boost to run out desperately searching for green mobs in Burning Steppes. It's 8PM, the raid has started, and it was getting ready to go. I was still in Burning Steppes, not even halfway there. I couldn't go there and get more, because we just downed Razorgore the previous night and were on Vael, where there was nothing to get soulshards off of. It took 20 minutes and I still had one 16-slotter to farm. The situation was made worse by a Human Warrior that decided to kill me while I had just finished a mob. Thankfully, he was one horrible Warrior, and I won..but later he spawned and killed me when I had 300 health left. Another few minutes down the drain. I would've been kicked but we suddenly decided to run MC - where it was easy to gain shards.
So, the problem is, not only is soulshard farming not fun and a huge time-sink, it also makes scheduled raiding harder to do. Other classes have to repair and buy a reagent. Warlocks have to take 1 hour to farm their shards. This means they have to have one hour of pure farming for nothing but an item you'll blow right through later in order to be of any use in endgame raiding. It's extremely frusterating.
Would have preferred the warlock forums, but whatever...
The examples you use with Onyxia and BWL are skewed to favor your opinion, in the sense that they do not have a lot of trash-mobs from which to farm inside the instance. This does not hold true for other instances. Yes, there is likely going to be an intitial quantity you will want pre-raid to summon or what have you.
However, if you have a planned raid, you also have the opportunity to prepare for it. The fact that you logged on soon before your raid without enough shards to your liking is a raid preparation issue. It would probably be recommended to farm shards before you log off, not after you log on.
However, the core of this issue really lies with continued PvP. Shard collection is possible, but not nearly as viable in a PvP situation as it is with PvE. The difficulties in using drain soul in a BG are probably fairly noticable for players.
I would like to discuss more in full the issue of gathering with the devs. The primary concern is making a change to gathering which will then affect two different situations entirely (PvE and PvP). With many issues related to many classes, this is a challenging focal point to keep in mind when making adjustments.
Starin' you down, creepy jackalope eye...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5968690&p=#post5968939 | Poster: Tseric at 11/25/2005 4:52:40 PM PST
Subject: Re: Storing shards isnt the problem, gatherin |
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I see a lot of comments and replies based on the "convenience" of buying reagents. You do realize that reagents cost money. Where does money come from?
Essentially, it comes from farming. So, effectively we are comparing shard farming with money farming. The difference here is how this is managed over time. Whether it is incremental or gathered in to a lump sum. The people that seem to have the most difficulty are players that are running out of shards and then need to restock. This comes down to expenditure and intake(of shards) and the balance of the two.
Again, I will say that I think there could be some improvements for shard gathering, but we aren't just going to make them hand-outs because collecting them isn't "fun" enough for some players. In many aspects, without challenge and long-term decision making, there is no fun to be had, because it is simply too easy to get what you need.
Downtime is likely to be an unavoidable component of any class. The fact that farming shards isn't even true downtime should be considered. While it would be nice to have adjustments to collection, it is also possible to manage this aspect to minimalize it's current impact on game play.
Personally, there are few times I have found myself with no shards. PvP usually being one of those situations. I keep my shard count in mind often and it adds an element that I find involved and challenging. I am not interested in just logging on and kill/loot/kill/loot/kill/loot until I get tired. But that's just me ;)[ post edited by Tseric ]
Starin' you down, creepy jackalope eye...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5968690&p=#post5969268 | Poster: Tseric at 11/25/2005 4:58:17 PM PST
Subject: Re: Storing shards isnt the problem, gatherin |
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Q u o t e:
What was the point of that? A year has gone by, and all you can say is "I will talk to the devs?". What have you been doing for the past 12 months?
Necromo, are you perennially in a bad mood or just when you see me?
I've only been working in this capacity for the past couple of months. I'm sorry your class wasn't the first thing on my list. I'm here now, so lets stick to the issues.
Starin' you down, creepy jackalope eye...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5968690&p=#post5969337 | Poster: Tseric at 11/25/2005 5:04:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: Storing shards isnt the problem, gatherin |
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Q u o t e:
This is just getting out of hand. We tell you shard furming is no fun, you tell us to bite it, in a more elaborate manner.
We warlocks got rid of Eyonix. You will not last either, I hope.
No, what I'm telling you is there are things you can do to adjust the situation along with what we could do. Seems to me, when most people run into an obstacle, their first reaction is to demand something from the devs to make their life easier. They don't take the first opportunity to face the obstacle as a challenge.
Again, I will say that even I would like to see something change with this. In the meantime, I'm going to man up about it and deal with it as my challenge. Your attitude shows me you will probably not walk the same path.[ post edited by Tseric ]
Starin' you down, creepy jackalope eye...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5968690&p=#post5969412 | Poster: Tseric at 11/25/2005 5:38:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: Storing shards isnt the problem, gatherin |
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Ok, as a tentative sign-off to this thread, I would like to present some ideas which I would like to use as starting points for further discussion with the devs. I will not limit my discussion to these points only, but I feel it would make a reasonable starting point.
With respect to these hypotheticals I would like to get your opinions in a pro/con format that I will illustrate below. Try to consider a con if you present a pro to ideas. We shouldn't be thinking about simply what makes things easier for the class, but how it could impact the game as a whole.
Book drop for drain soul:
Create a spell-book item that drops somwhere to allow a new level of drain soul which could render 2 or more shards (starting with 2 for simplicity)
Pros:
- reduces time farming shards by at least half, as collection is doubled
- focuses on alleviating raid preparation and 60+ players due to drop status and rank
Cons:
- drop status and rank does nothing or little for lower level players
- travel to farm locations unaddressed
Ghosts at various graveyards
Pros:
- with a graveyard in every zone, farming for shards can happen closer to raid entrances
- invisible creatures will be yellow, so as not to attack others, but can be seen with detect invis., adding more use to the spell
Cons:
- possible aggro issues due to unforseen player interaction (AoEs or other things)
- level limitations of creatures might have to be adjusted and re-adjusted
Comment on these or add others as you see fit, with the format provided.[ post edited by Tseric ]
Starin' you down, creepy jackalope eye...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5968690&p=#post5969804 | Poster: Tseric at 11/25/2005 5:38:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: Storing shards isnt the problem, gatherin *edited post* |
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Ok, as a tentative sign-off to this thread, I would like to present some ideas which I would like to use as starting points for further discussion with the devs. I will not limit my discussion to these points only, but I feel it would make a reasonable starting point.
With respect to these hypotheticals I would like to get your opinions in a pro/con format that I will illustrate below. Try to consider a con if you present a pro to ideas. We shouldn't be thinking about simply what makes things easier for the class, but how it could impact the game as a whole.
Book drop for drain soul:
Create a spell-book item that drops somwhere to allow a new level of drain soul which could render 2 or more shards (starting with 2 for simplicity)
Pros:
- reduces time farming shards by at least half, as collection is doubled
- focuses on alleviating raid preparation and 60+ players due to drop status and rank
Cons:
- drop status and rank does nothing or little for lower level players
- travel to farm locations unaddressed
Ghosts at various graveyards
Pros:
- with a graveyard in every zone, farming for shards can happen closer to raid entrances
- invisible creatures will be yellow, so as not to attack others, but can be seen with detect invis., adding more use to the spell
Cons:
- possible aggro issues due to unforseen player interaction (AoEs or other things)
- level limitations of creatures might have to be adjusted and re-adjusted
Comment on these or add others as you see fit, with the format provided.[ post edited by Tseric ]
Starin' you down, creepy jackalope eye...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5968690&p=#post5969804 | Poster: Tseric at 11/25/2005 4:52:40 PM PST
Subject: Re: Storing shards isnt the problem, gatherin *edited post* |
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I see a lot of comments and replies based on the "convenience" of buying reagents. You do realize that reagents cost money. Where does money come from?
Essentially, it comes from farming. So, effectively we are comparing shard farming with money farming. The difference here is how this is managed over time. Whether it is incremental or gathered in to a lump sum. The people that seem to have the most difficulty are players that are running out of shards and then need to restock. This comes down to expenditure and intake(of shards) and the balance of the two.
Again, I will say that I think there could be some improvements for shard gathering, but we aren't just going to make them hand-outs because collecting them isn't "fun" enough for some players. In many aspects, without challenge and long-term decision making, there is no fun to be had, because it is simply too easy to get what you need.
Downtime is likely to be an unavoidable component of any class. The fact that farming shards isn't even true downtime should be considered. While it would be nice to have adjustments to collection, it is also possible to manage this aspect to minimalize it's current impact on game play.
Personally, there are few times I have found myself with no shards. PvP usually being one of those situations. I keep my shard count in mind often and it adds an element that I find involved and challenging. I am not interested in just logging on and kill/loot/kill/loot/kill/loot until I get tired. But that's just me ;)[ post edited by Tseric ]
Starin' you down, creepy jackalope eye...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5968690&p=#post5969268 | Poster: Tseric at 11/25/2005 4:58:17 PM PST
Subject: Re: Storing shards isnt the problem, gatherin *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
What was the point of that? A year has gone by, and all you can say is "I will talk to the devs?". What have you been doing for the past 12 months?
Necromo, are you perennially in a bad mood or just when you see me?
I've only been working in this capacity for the past couple of months. I'm sorry your class wasn't the first thing on my list. I'm here now, so lets stick to the issues.
Starin' you down, creepy jackalope eye...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5968690&p=#post5969337 | Poster: Tseric at 11/25/2005 5:04:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: Storing shards isnt the problem, gatherin *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
This is just getting out of hand. We tell you shard furming is no fun, you tell us to bite it, in a more elaborate manner.
We warlocks got rid of Eyonix. You will not last either, I hope.
No, what I'm telling you is there are things you can do to adjust the situation along with what we could do. Seems to me, when most people run into an obstacle, their first reaction is to demand something from the devs to make their life easier. They don't take the first opportunity to face the obstacle as a challenge.
Again, I will say that even I would like to see something change with this. In the meantime, I'm going to man up about it and deal with it as my challenge. Your attitude shows me you will probably not walk the same path.[ post edited by Tseric ]
Starin' you down, creepy jackalope eye...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5968690&p=#post5969412 | Poster: Tseric at 11/25/2005 5:38:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: Storing shards isnt the problem, gatherin *edited post* |
| |
Ok, as a tentative sign-off to this thread, I would like to present some ideas which I would like to use as starting points for further discussion with the devs. I will not limit my discussion to these points only, but I feel it would make a reasonable starting point.
With respect to these hypotheticals I would like to get your opinions in a pro/con format that I will illustrate below. Try to consider a con if you present a pro to ideas. We shouldn't be thinking about simply what makes things easier for the class, but how it could impact the game as a whole.
Book drop for drain soul:
Create a spell-book item that drops somwhere to allow a new level of drain soul which could render 2 or more shards (starting with 2 for simplicity)
Pros:
- reduces time farming shards by at least half, as collection is doubled
- focuses on alleviating raid preparation and 60+ players due to drop status and rank
Cons:
- drop status and rank does nothing or little for lower level players
- travel to farm locations unaddressed
Ghosts at various graveyards
Pros:
- with a graveyard in every zone, farming for shards can happen closer to raid entrances
- invisible creatures will be yellow, so as not to attack others, but can be seen with detect invis., adding more use to the spell
Cons:
- possible aggro issues due to unforseen player interaction (AoEs or other things)
- level limitations of creatures might have to be adjusted and re-adjusted
Comment on these or add others as you see fit, with the format provided.[ post edited by Tseric ]
Starin' you down, creepy jackalope eye...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5968690&p=#post5969804 |
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