Poster: Etoulanya at 11/12/2005 2:26:27 AM PST
Subject: CM's and MVP's.. |
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This was orignially a reply to another thread which I never got to post because the thread was apparently deleted from the forums. I tried to make this as constructive as possible while still being informative about my feelings and/or thoughts.
"I actually agree with the OP, but I think it's probably for different reasons.
I acknowledge and respect the fact that you don't have to be level 60 to make a positive and constructive contribution to the community. It's much the same thing as the fact that you don't have to be 18 to have a valid political opinion (or a valid opinion about anything, really).
However, I agree with the OP in the respect that I think it's..skewed to give positions of "honor", so to speak, to people who won't even share who they really are to the community.
I feel the same way about the CM's. I think it's..I can't exactly find the word I want to use..I guess just wrong..to expect to be respected by people just because you have the ability to post in blue. I have seen at least one CM be just..blatantly rude to members of the community. This, coupled with hiding behind a "false avatar", so to speak..just gives me the overall feeling that the CMs expect to BE respected, but don't want to GIVE respect in return.
Given the fact that it's never been actually PROVEN that anyone who supposedly represents the community even has a level 60 and is aware of "endgame" issues, I find it difficult at times to believe that the CMs ARE actually aware of them.
The example that comes to mind is one of the CMs saying priests are "One tough cookie", when anyone who has ever played a 60 priest can tell you that, even at sixty, priests are like butter and rogues, warriors, hunters, etc. are like the hot knife. Priests get mowed down, especially in PVP, faster than any other casting (see cloth) class. Warlocks used to be pretty bad but got their fix. My hunter gets pasted by good warlocks all the time in the battlegrounds. Mages are difficult to take down because they can freeze you in place and kill you before you can get to them (for melee classes) or freeze you in your dead zone (for hunters).
Priests have...what? Fear? Which has been nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed..basically into OBLIVION since release. Inner Fire? Dispellable and doesn't last long enough anyway. Priests have nothing in the way of ability to kite, like mages. Nothing in the ability to seduce or fear (except for once every 30 seconds).
All in all, I've found priests to be one of the easiest classes to take down. Yet classes that need fixing even LESS than priests are getting fixed first? (See paladin. Paladins live FOREVER. They take at least a couple people to kill, from my experience. If my hunter actually turns around and fights them, I die almost every time because I run out of mana and they have what equals about 3-4 lives. Sure, I can just run from them..but I didn't think there was supposed to be a class that could outlast just about ANY other class, unless that person just gives up and runs..)
I understand the whole rock, paper, scissors thing and I don't have any issues with it. I don't think that there should be one class that it's impossible to kill unless you zerg them. However, there are classes running around out there (paladins, warriors, rogues) who, at high end, are like outdoor raid bosses. They just won't die unless you zerg ten people on them, and even then you're going to lose half your force. I don't think this is very balanced.
Anyway, my point is..it doesn't really seem like the CMs even LISTEN to their community that they're supposed to be representing. There have been times when the community said "This isn't right!" and certain CMs just either ignored them or (excuse the expression) thumbed their noses at everyone. (By this, I mean just being blatantly and inexcusably rude.)
I realize that when these forums are moderated that you guys have to put up with a lot of trash-talk and such. However, sometimes it seems like you don't even bother to LISTEN to what the community has to say and that is VERY frustrating. I know it isn't the CM's jobs to fix the problems with the game and such, but I have gathered that it's their job to relay information to the Devs. Well, it is extremely frustrating when it doesn't even feel like your voice is being heard because the CMs are only listening and hearing whatever it is that they WANT to hear.
To me, hiding behind avatars that aren't your real characters and aren't your real "person", so to speak, is just..insult to injury. It's like giving us 100 lashes and then pouring salt all over the wound. By this I mean it feels like not ONLY are we not being listened to, but we're also not even given the dignity of knowing WHO is ignoring us.
I realize that the CMs see a lot of whining on these forums..but, quite frankly, there's A LOT wrong with the functionality of this game. The Devs are apparently trying to desperately to balance PVP and PVE that many GLARINGLY obvious issues are continually ignored.
I play this game because I think it has a great deal of potential. However, I think the execution leaves MUCH to be desired. I'm sure I'm not alone in the fact that I stick around to see if the issues that are there are going to be addressed. I won't hesitate to say, though, that when and if another MMO comes out that I feel has potential, and this one isn't fixed, I won't hesitate to move on.
It seems like more often than any issues are fixed, something is nerfed. I'm aware that there's a fine line between the two, but there have been some things that were nerfed that made absolutely zero sense. The example that comes to mind is the nerf to retaliate, a warrior skill. I can't recall seeing any posts asking for it to be nerfed, not even by trolls. Yet it was. For some unfathomable reason the Devs thought something which was on a THIRTY MINUTE COOLDOWN needed to be nerfed to complete uselessness. Things like that..they just don't make sense to me.
It reminds me of when my husband and I were playing Everquest (which is where we met). We had been playing together for at least a year and the game had been out for much longer than that..about four years. At the time we were playing a bard and a necromancer and were doing a lot of bard-style kiting with necro DoTs added in. After FOUR YEARS of KNOWING it was there..bard kiting was nerfed. In what way does that make sense to wait FOUR YEARS to nerf something that you've known about from the beginning? SOE was the same way about FIXING things as they were about nerfing them. To this day there are quests in EQ that are bugged.
I recognize the fact that Blizzard IS putting effort into it..more so than SOE ever did for EQ. Otherwise I wouldn't have stuck around this long. However, I think there are still large chunks of the game that need serious improvement that are being ignored and aren't going to be fixed in the forseeable future (or at least not FINISHED being fixed, as the case may be). (i.e. caster itemization, class balancing, class survivability issues, the SERIOUS lack of casual-gamer content, etc.)
At any rate, my point is this.
Honest contributors to the community go largely ignored almost always to the point that even the most constructive of people/posters can go a little bit feral. Being largely ignored for..what is it now? A year?..is enough to make ANYONE cranky. I imagine it's even worse for those who were in beta.
To add insult to the injury of being ignored, we're not even given the dignity of knowing WHO it is that is largely ignoring us..not to mention that some of the issues that classes try to point out may not have been addressed to the Devs because of lack of a CM who plays the class (or, in some cases, plays the class high end).
The way that things are executed on this forum often makes ME feel like there are people in charge of this game (or at least the face the community sees) who hide behind masks and throw insults (either by being blatantly rude, ignoring us, or refusing to communicate ideas, thoughts and feelings to the Devs) all the while giving the impression of being "better" or "above" everything and everyone else..just because they have blue text.
Like I said, while I don't agree with the manner in which the OP said it, I do think he has a point.
I would also like to point at that I have phrased this in the best way I know how in order to get my point across."
Main Healing since February of 2000
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5752941&p=#post5752941 | | | Poster: Caydiem at 11/12/2005 3:14:53 AM PST
Subject: Re: CM's and MVP's.. |
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Q u o t e:
And yet every post about it has been locked. The only reason this one hasen't is because Cay probably went to sleep.
Says something, doesn't it?
People certainly can voice their opinions, provided they're constructive about it.
The situation may not change -- while I understand where the original poster is coming from, what they desire (at least as far as character identification) cannot be put into effect for a plethora of reasons -- but voicing one's thoughts on it is fine.
It's when you proclaim that your opinion is the opinion of all that you step into troll territory. ;)[ post edited by Caydiem ]
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5752941&p=#post5753244 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/12/2005 3:20:18 AM PST
Subject: Re: CM's and MVP's.. |
| |
Q u o t e:
This falls dangerously close to being equivalent to: If you back up your opinion by asserting it is correct, you step into troll territory.
My experience thus far has been that posts meeting the latter qualification are deleted, while those meeting the former qualification are left unmolested.
It is not the same thing in the slightest.
EDIT: Remember, though, that by asserting your opinion at all, you're implying that what you say is the correct way of things (with the exception of playing Devil's Advocate, but that is normally stated outright). Flat out stating that isn't bad. Making wild claims, however... that's not terribly constructive. :P[ post edited by Caydiem ]
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5752941&p=#post5753280 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/12/2005 3:46:22 AM PST
Subject: Re: CM's and MVP's.. |
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I do want to make a point, Etoulanya.
I'll state outright that we don't have a level 60 of each class on the Community Team.
I will also state that everyone has at least one level 60; some of us have two, and more on the way. I'm one of those people. I'm aware you're skeptical of this, but I'll get to that later.
We are not class representatives. We do not play the game as if it was work. We play the game for fun. To do otherwise is to lose a much more fundamental perspective about World of Warcraft and gaming in general that is, frankly, more important than having high-end raid experience with a character of every class. Now, mind you, back when the game was first launched, we were asked politely by our supervisor to hit 60 as soon as we could, and that we did. But we had fun along the way, and we're still playing the game for the same reason -- entertainment. Helping our work immensely is a nice bonus.
There are no class representatives. None. We are not assigned classes. What we all hold is, at the least, a rudimentary understanding of how all classes work, how the PvP system functions, and how raid encounters flow. We use this knowledge to explain player feedback -- your feedback, not ours -- to the developers. Despite what some posters believe, I do have intelligence enough to understand issues such as Fire Mage resist woes, Paladin range and buff frustrations, Warrior dissatisfaction with Bloodthirst without actually having level 60s of those classes. How? I'll lay it out:
1) I know the game. I know relative damage. I'm intimately familiar with group dynamics. I understand the rock/paper/scissors theory. I not only participate in high-end raid encounters in the game now -- I make it a point to test them when they're still in development, so I have a better understanding of how it's built. Now, this does not translate to an incredible depth of any one class, but the breadth allows me to understand the points you make when any game mechanic is brought up.
2) I am a decent communicator. I can read through posts on the class boards and get to the heart of what they're saying. Contrary to popular belief, I am in fact capable of reading such points and comprehending them fully. I am also able to rephrase them in a manner with which the developers will sympathize. There is a difference in perspectives between developer and player -- our job is primarily to bridge that gap.
1) I'm a gamer. I've been playing MMOs since 1997 -- I know the gamer mentality, because I am that person. I've been where you are... frustrated, wishing someone at the company would actually look at the problem that's been staring you in the face for what seems like ages. I still get there from time to time. ;) I empathize with your situation and, combined with my knowledge of game mechanics as a whole, can build a reasonable statement or proposal for the development team that still contains that fervor.
I can and do effectively communicate class concerns without having a level 60 of that class.
Now then, regarding my personal characters...
Please understand that we all play anonymously. To do otherwise would be to undermine something we're trying to achieve and, in fact, you want us to achieve, too -- the player experience. You want us to experience what you do. The problem is that the second we reveal our characters, that is utterly lost. We would be harassed in game non-stop, and the play experience would no longer remotely resemble what you do in a given day. As such, I cannot prove that I have a level 60 Druid and level 60 Rogue to you. I cannot post screenshots nor can I post under my main.
I shouldn't have to.
I do not expect people to respect me automatically because my text is blue. What I would like to see, however, is some common sense. I am a representative of Blizzard Entertainment. I have too often given straight facts directly from my supervisors or the developers only to be told I am lying. In terms of credibility... I am not a class representative, but I am a company representative. If you do not believe what I say is true, despite the fact that it tends to come from the creators of the game, then what more credibility do you seek?
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5752941&p=#post5753389 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/12/2005 3:50:01 AM PST
Subject: Re: CM's and MVP's.. |
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Q u o t e:
Cay does this mean your guild has a upper hand when approaching the high end instances as you already have the inside track of the dynamics of the encounters and know how to beat them thus giving your guild a hand up in beating these situations?
No.
My guild does not know who I am. I don't share strategies with them. The temptation can be there, but I have never done so.
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5752941&p=#post5753405 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/12/2005 3:14:53 AM PST
Subject: Re: CM's and MVP's.. *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
And yet every post about it has been locked. The only reason this one hasen't is because Cay probably went to sleep.
Says something, doesn't it?
People certainly can voice their opinions, provided they're constructive about it.
The situation may not change -- while I understand where the original poster is coming from, what they desire (at least as far as character identification) cannot be put into effect for a plethora of reasons -- but voicing one's thoughts on it is fine.
It's when you proclaim that your opinion is the opinion of all that you step into troll territory. ;)[ post edited by Caydiem ]
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5752941&p=#post5753244 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/12/2005 3:20:18 AM PST
Subject: Re: CM's and MVP's.. *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
This falls dangerously close to being equivalent to: If you back up your opinion by asserting it is correct, you step into troll territory.
My experience thus far has been that posts meeting the latter qualification are deleted, while those meeting the former qualification are left unmolested.
It is not the same thing in the slightest.
EDIT: Remember, though, that by asserting your opinion at all, you're implying that what you say is the correct way of things (with the exception of playing Devil's Advocate, but that is normally stated outright). Flat out stating that isn't bad. Making wild claims, however... that's not terribly constructive. :P[ post edited by Caydiem ]
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5752941&p=#post5753280 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/12/2005 3:46:22 AM PST
Subject: Re: CM's and MVP's.. *edited post* |
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I do want to make a point, Etoulanya.
I'll state outright that we don't have a level 60 of each class on the Community Team.
I will also state that everyone has at least one level 60; some of us have two, and more on the way. I'm one of those people. I'm aware you're skeptical of this, but I'll get to that later.
We are not class representatives. We do not play the game as if it was work. We play the game for fun. To do otherwise is to lose a much more fundamental perspective about World of Warcraft and gaming in general that is, frankly, more important than having high-end raid experience with a character of every class. Now, mind you, back when the game was first launched, we were asked politely by our supervisor to hit 60 as soon as we could, and that we did. But we had fun along the way, and we're still playing the game for the same reason -- entertainment. Helping our work immensely is a nice bonus.
There are no class representatives. None. We are not assigned classes. What we all hold is, at the least, a rudimentary understanding of how all classes work, how the PvP system functions, and how raid encounters flow. We use this knowledge to explain player feedback -- your feedback, not ours -- to the developers. Despite what some posters believe, I do have intelligence enough to understand issues such as Fire Mage resist woes, Paladin range and buff frustrations, Warrior dissatisfaction with Bloodthirst without actually having level 60s of those classes. How? I'll lay it out:
1) I know the game. I know relative damage. I'm intimately familiar with group dynamics. I understand the rock/paper/scissors theory. I not only participate in high-end raid encounters in the game now -- I make it a point to test them when they're still in development, so I have a better understanding of how it's built. Now, this does not translate to an incredible depth of any one class, but the breadth allows me to understand the points you make when any game mechanic is brought up.
2) I am a decent communicator. I can read through posts on the class boards and get to the heart of what they're saying. Contrary to popular belief, I am in fact capable of reading such points and comprehending them fully. I am also able to rephrase them in a manner with which the developers will sympathize. There is a difference in perspectives between developer and player -- our job is primarily to bridge that gap.
1) I'm a gamer. I've been playing MMOs since 1997 -- I know the gamer mentality, because I am that person. I've been where you are... frustrated, wishing someone at the company would actually look at the problem that's been staring you in the face for what seems like ages. I still get there from time to time. ;) I empathize with your situation and, combined with my knowledge of game mechanics as a whole, can build a reasonable statement or proposal for the development team that still contains that fervor.
I can and do effectively communicate class concerns without having a level 60 of that class.
Now then, regarding my personal characters...
Please understand that we all play anonymously. To do otherwise would be to undermine something we're trying to achieve and, in fact, you want us to achieve, too -- the player experience. You want us to experience what you do. The problem is that the second we reveal our characters, that is utterly lost. We would be harassed in game non-stop, and the play experience would no longer remotely resemble what you do in a given day. As such, I cannot prove that I have a level 60 Druid and level 60 Rogue to you. I cannot post screenshots nor can I post under my main.
I shouldn't have to.
I do not expect people to respect me automatically because my text is blue. What I would like to see, however, is some common sense. I am a representative of Blizzard Entertainment. I have too often given straight facts directly from my supervisors or the developers only to be told I am lying. In terms of credibility... I am not a class representative, but I am a company representative. If you do not believe what I say is true, despite the fact that it tends to come from the creators of the game, then what more credibility do you seek?
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5752941&p=#post5753389 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/12/2005 3:50:01 AM PST
Subject: Re: CM's and MVP's.. *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Cay does this mean your guild has a upper hand when approaching the high end instances as you already have the inside track of the dynamics of the encounters and know how to beat them thus giving your guild a hand up in beating these situations?
No.
My guild does not know who I am. I don't share strategies with them. The temptation can be there, but I have never done so.
It's dark.
You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5752941&p=#post5753405 |
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