Poster: Overen at 11/2/2005 8:50:58 AM PST
Subject: Why Class Reps don't understand the game |
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Firstly, I apologize if the thread title seems belligerent… it's a fairly large amount of frustration with the way things seem to be done (accounted by several class rep responses in several forums). The problem is this - many class reps play a class to level 40 or 50 and then judge how balanced the class is by their performance at that level. Most reps seem to believe that the game scales in a linear fashion and because they are fine at level 45, they will be fine at 60. Honestly, nothing could be further from the truth.
The simple fact of this game is that classes do not scale in a linear fashion. Gear at level 60 evens the playfield between classes that excel too early. There is honestly nothing more frustrating than having a class rep say something along the lines of "I have a 45 <class> and they are fine". Here are some examples of how the dynamics of various classes (or all classes) change at level 60.
- Increased stamina from end-game instances alters how much damage a character class can take; this scales must faster than damage in most cases meaning that while a mage may not be able to survive two crits from a warrior at level 45, he can easily do so at 60 with a good set of gear. If you were to look at this from a level 45 perspective, you might be tempted to judge warriors too harshly or mages too lightly when the truth toward the endgame is quite different.
- Increased +damage bonuses on caster gear. Druids pre-60 have incredibly weak damage spells, comparatively, but with a full talent spec and a large amount of +damage gear, then can hit for 3000+ damage on a crit starfire. If you were to judge a druid's spell damage previous to 60, you might be tempted to set their spell damage higher, resulting in level 60 moonkin frequently one shotting people.
- Endgame weapons for rogues and warriors change those two classes COMPLETELY from where they are at level 45. A level 45 rogue with a thrash blade (quested level 45 sword) can do about 70-75% of the DPS of a completely maxxed out (MC-BWL gear) level 60 rogue. However, a level 45 warrior only does about 25-33% of the DPS of a completely maxxed out warrior. What this means is that rogues gain power early but increase in power *very* slowly post-60 while warriors are low powered early on but increase in power DRAMATICALLY post 60. The class reps, who base decisions off of levels 40-50, completely miss this and do not understand where the problems lie.
In order to really understand the issues, class reps need to be dedicated to a single class and really need to play that class to the end game. Just stopping at level 60 with lower blackrock spire gear is still not going to show you imbalances/problems with the class. I realize in an ideal world/game having all class reps able to examine/help with all classes is by far the most efficient method, but it's honestly not working out too well in some cases.
This is a plea to any class rep who might be reading this… if you have not played a class to level 60, raided some end-game instances (ZG or MC at least) please understand that you probably don't have a firm grasp on the state of the class at these levels of play. For example, no level 45 rogue is ever going to understand what happens during the playtime of a level 60 rogue under any circumstances… it's just flat out impossible with the way the game's mechanics currently work.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5595181&p=#post5595181 | | | Poster: Caydiem at 11/2/2005 11:52:01 AM PST
Subject: Re: Why Class Reps don't understand the game |
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1) There are no class representatives.
2) The Community Representatives that field feedback do not take their personal feedback to the developers, nor do they believe their personal experience in game is the only one worth counting. They take your feedback to the developers.
2a) I have a level 60 Rogue, for example. I raid with him. I, personally, do not have a problem with the class, but again, my personal opinion is not what matters. Your opinion is what the developers hear.
You are complaining about a system that doesn't exist on these forums. Community representatives play a class to gain a frame of reference, primarily. When you complain about a particular ability, spell, talent, or piece of gear, we can relate and sympathize because we know precisely what you're talking about. We have context. We use that context to deliver, again, your feedback to the developers in a manner with which they'll sympathize.
How well do you think Hunters did when they were reviewed overall, Overen? Pretty well, yes? The majority of Hunters seem to be more or less happy with what they received.
My Hunter was in its 30s when I related the feedback to the developers.
The reason why it worked is because I don't consider my personal experience in game to be the only experience worth relating. My experiences take a back seat to your own when I'm talking to the developers. The way I was able to relate Hunter concerns well was simple; using my own play experience as basic knowledge of how the class operates (note: NOT the problems with the class), I read the player feedback on the forums, was able to relate as I had context with my own character, and then spoke with the developers about these confidently. I was not fumbling in the dark with the class, but my own play experience was not the focus -- or even factored in, really -- to the feedback I gave.
In short, your perception of how our feedback system works is a bit skewed, and I hope this has enlightened you somewhat.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5595181&p=#post5598947 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/2/2005 12:04:46 PM PST
Subject: Re: Why Class Reps don't understand the game |
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Q u o t e:
THis is complete malarky about their not being class reps. There most certainly are, whether you guys choose to officially recognize them or not.
Fangtooth was the Priest rep.
Then he became the Paladin rep.
Caydiem is/was the Druid & Hunter rep.
I can't believe people are buying into this "No class rep" crap. It's a blatant lie. Hell, Fangtooth even made a post on the Paladin forum stating that he had been assigned to look at the Paladin class - this was months ago, unfortuantely, so it's probably gone now. Sort of bows your whole "no class rep" crap.
There are no official class representatives.
The person fielding Paladin feedback has switched hands about three times, for example. What we do -- for ease of communication -- is take up the banner temporarily and work with a class for a limited time based on our past experience with it. While I may have fielded Hunters briefly during their intensive review, anyone can -- and does -- bring feedback to the developers regarding that class. It's not just me. Fangtooth, Tseric, Eyonix... they all send feedback to the developers along with myself regarding all classes. If they're due for another intensive review later, it might be someone entirely different.
No one is assigned to a class. A class review is a project, and we might be assigned to that project, but we hold no ownership of those classes. It's a common misconception; that's the truth of matters.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5595181&p=#post5599192 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/2/2005 12:07:55 PM PST
Subject: Re: Why Class Reps don't understand the game |
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Q u o t e:
If anything that probably validates the OP's point. The very lack of understanding of the end-game for hunters is probably what led to their blatant overpowered nature we see today. Taking that same example from a warlock's P.o.V would be like saying "I leveled my Warlock to 30, shards are pretty annoying to deal with so all level 60s should be receiving 2-4 shards per drain soul kill".
Caydiem, you appear to be the only CM to really try and represent the class to which you are assigned. We warlocks have eyonix...Someone who despite playing experience should understand that warlocks still have several issues wrong. Yet here we are a year later without shardbags, a horridly useless Curse of Weakness, a PvE-only Curse of Doom and Curse of Recklessness(since noone would dare give melee more strength and immunity to fear), 2 useless end-game pets, and a slew of other problems.
What did warlocks get? A half-functional warlock version of a scatter shot on a longer cooldown, no crit chance, and has a 1s lag to transfer the drained health resulting in many deaths before receiving the leech effect. Yet, we are still overpowered, so after fear has been nerfed to nothingness thru trinkets, talents and functionality we have our actually USEFUL skills Curse of Shadows/Elements to be nerfed in the next patch.
And we're expected to believe our CM sympathizes with class problems by relating to them? Surely, you jest...
There's a Warlock scant bubbles from 60 on our team, you realize. :P
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5595181&p=#post5599264 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/2/2005 12:13:50 PM PST
Subject: Re: Why Class Reps don't understand the game |
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Q u o t e:
Gee, a level 60 Rogue has no problems with the class. WHAT A HUGE SURPRISE. Fangtooth has stated outright that he's NEVER PUT A SINGLE POINT into Holy on his Priest. And yet, when we, the players, tell you that the Holy tree is broken and damn near worthless, you ignore us entirely. So tell us- who exactly are the the devs listening to?
You realize that Eyonix's Holy Priest -- which he's levelled as Holy since level 1 (well, 10) -- is nearly 60 and he's been raiding often with it, yes? ;)[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5595181&p=#post5599369 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/2/2005 12:18:33 PM PST
Subject: Re: Why Class Reps don't understand the game |
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Q u o t e:
It's funny, isn't it. Apparently the Devs/CMs are infallible. Anything they say is gospel. I can't stand when people think that just because it's in blue, it might as well have been spoken from God's right hand.
I understand your frustration in that regard, Casinova, but when it comes to our jobs... I do believe we're a little more educated on what our job entails and whether there are class representatives, since it's what we do all day. We're privy to what goes on behind the scenes, whereas you are not. I can understand holding a healthy level of skepticism when it comes to some things, but on the subject of my occupation, I do believe I'm a bit more qualified to make claims than, say, you. :)
Fangtooth was assigned to the Paladin feedback project for that brief period. He's not anymore. It was a project, he completed his bit, he's done. He's still playing his Paladin.
There are no class representatives. There is a perception that there are, but it is untrue. I would appreciate it if you would stop perpetuating said misconception. :P
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5595181&p=#post5599456 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/2/2005 12:42:14 PM PST
Subject: Re: Why Class Reps don't understand the game |
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Q u o t e:
Are you saying this with a straight face? In the same breath, you're stating that Fangtooth was temporarily assigned to represent the Paladin community to the Devs - but that he wasn't a class rep? What logic are you going by here?
I'm not debating whether you pass along your personal viewpoints or whether you pass along the community's opinion. I'm just telling you that this notion that there's not class reps is ridiculous. You are class reps. You even state that you represent the classes - you just refuse to accept the term "class rep" for some reason.
What does the term "class representative" evoke for you? For me, it brings to mind what has been done in past MMOs -- a single person permanently assigned to a particular class, who plays that class primarily. This individual should have as much experience as any particular player in the given class -- they should have in-depth, hands-on knowledge of (in this case) talent trees, roles in solo, PvP, group and raid, and the strengths and shortcomings of the class. They should be a fount of knowledge about anything and everything regarding their assigned class. They're representing that particular class, after all, and to be any less would be failing in their assigned duty.
I'll bet that's what a lot of others think when they think "class representative", which is why there are so many "Why are you representing us if your <insert class> isn't level 60 yet" questions.
That's not who we are, Casinova, and no amount of insistence on your part that your perception is true is going to change that.
We represent the community as a whole. We field feedback for all classes. There are times when one of us is assigned to a particular class review, as Fangtooth was briefly -- but that is temporary. We do not fit the bill of the above class representative definition, but there are several people on the boards who do.
They're called players.
Thus we use our knowledge of the game -- focusing on breadth rather than depth -- to field player feedback and bring that to the developers. In the end, the experiences of many players far outweigh the adventures of a single person -- by counting everyone's feedback, comments and concerns rather than behaving as the pinnacle for a particular class ourselves, the developers get a more rounded, accurate view of the class situation in game.
So no, Casinova, there are no class representatives -- and repeating that we are won't make it so. :P
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5595181&p=#post5599970 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/2/2005 12:42:14 PM PST
Subject: Re: Why Class Reps don't understand the game *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Are you saying this with a straight face? In the same breath, you're stating that Fangtooth was temporarily assigned to represent the Paladin community to the Devs - but that he wasn't a class rep? What logic are you going by here?
I'm not debating whether you pass along your personal viewpoints or whether you pass along the community's opinion. I'm just telling you that this notion that there's not class reps is ridiculous. You are class reps. You even state that you represent the classes - you just refuse to accept the term "class rep" for some reason.
What does the term "class representative" evoke for you? For me, it brings to mind what has been done in past MMOs -- a single person permanently assigned to a particular class, who plays that class primarily. This individual should have as much experience as any particular player in the given class -- they should have in-depth, hands-on knowledge of (in this case) talent trees, roles in solo, PvP, group and raid, and the strengths and shortcomings of the class. They should be a fount of knowledge about anything and everything regarding their assigned class. They're representing that particular class, after all, and to be any less would be failing in their assigned duty.
I'll bet that's what a lot of others think when they think "class representative", which is why there are so many "Why are you representing us if your <insert class> isn't level 60 yet" questions.
That's not who we are, Casinova, and no amount of insistence on your part that your perception is true is going to change that.
We represent the community as a whole. We field feedback for all classes. There are times when one of us is assigned to a particular class review, as Fangtooth was briefly -- but that is temporary. We do not fit the bill of the above class representative definition, but there are several people on the boards who do.
They're called players.
Thus we use our knowledge of the game -- focusing on breadth rather than depth -- to field player feedback and bring that to the developers. In the end, the experiences of many players far outweigh the adventures of a single person -- by counting everyone's feedback, comments and concerns rather than behaving as the pinnacle for a particular class ourselves, the developers get a more rounded, accurate view of the class situation in game.
So no, Casinova, there are no class representatives -- and repeating that we are won't make it so. :P
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5595181&p=#post5599970 |
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