Poster: Quilt at 10/12/2005 8:21:08 PM PDT
Subject: Petition to Bring Admiral's Hat Pre 1.8 |
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Q u o t e:
1.8
The effect of the Admiral's Hat has been changed. You can now click the Admiral's Hat to provide yourself with an aura that gives you and your nearby party members a stamina increase. Taking the hat off will remove the effect.
The fact that you could use this hat to add 10 STAM to the whole party whilst losing one of the most important piece of gear means this item is more than useless.
Before 1.8, you can wear this hat and buff the main tank with an extra 100HP (stacked with Fortitude) and could remove the hat to wear something else. Obviously this is too powerful according to Blizzard. And I am guessing the original intend is to have yourself sacrafice a piece of gear for the extra 100 HP to another. But come on, only warrior gets the most benefits from the hat effect. You really think the benefits of the other 3 (yourself not including cause your original gear would have more than 10STAM) is going to outweigh penalty of not wearing a head gear?
Alright guys, get your disenchanter rod ready.[ post edited by Quilt ]
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5278960&p=#post5278960 | | | Poster: Caydiem at 10/12/2005 8:47:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Petitoin to Bring Admiral's Hat Pre 1.8 |
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Don't you find it odd that a crafted item -- lower than 250 skill needed to make it, mind -- was practically a must-have for raids? It makes little sense with the way our items work that the Hat's effect could be used without actually wearing it. Its extreme utility in the highest end content was a red flag; the hat was, to my knowledge, never meant to be used and then pocketed away. The give-and-take of the item was that you could buff your party with it but you had to be wearing it. This has been fixed so the proper advantages and drawbacks apply.
I'm aware many are unhappy with the change, but in all honesty, its old use was a bit ludicrous. ;)
I sport a Tauren-sized browncoat...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5278960&p=#post5279214 | Poster: Caydiem at 10/12/2005 9:20:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Petitoin to Bring Admiral's Hat Pre 1.8 |
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Q u o t e:
You heard it here first, a 10 sta buff was ludicrous. It was completely unbalancing raid content. I saw a screenshot of a hunter with 8k hp's the other day. Had he only had 7,900 hp's, they probably would have called the raid.
Here's an honest question... if it was so insignificant, why are you folks upset about the change? ;)
I sport a Tauren-sized browncoat...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5278960&p=#post5279596 | Poster: Caydiem at 10/12/2005 9:36:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Petitoin to Bring Admiral's Hat Pre 1.8 |
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Q u o t e:
Here's an honest answer....becuase we're tired of Blizz telling us explicitly how to play their game when we discover something FUN and (barely) useful.
EXACTLY LIKE BLIZZ DID WITH [REALLY STICKY GLUE].
No one was complaining and your devs turned something that was a fun pvp tactic (not including raid exploits), no where NEAR as imbalancing as you claimed it was, and simply ruined it.
That honest enough?
Bull
Your opinion is understandable.
I'll take this opportunity to give you some insight on the wide world of game design.
All developers try their best to anticipate player reactions -- as many varied reactions and uses as they possibly can. QA does the same. But we're all only human, and inevitably there will be a time when our developers do not anticipate a particular use of an item they've made. I can tell you that there's a good chance the original creator of the Admiral's Hat never once thought it would become an item farmed for by raiding guilds to grant everyone that extra Stamina. By the same token, the individual who made the Really Sticky Glue quest clearly intended it for very low level players and didn't anticipate the utility in high-end PvP. This sort of thing happens. All of us, player and developer alike, are only human; however, when up against the ingenuity of millions of players, there will inevitably be a time when something is done that the designers did not intend.
No matter your personal beliefs on the subject, the fact of the matter is that the game is very precariously balanced. All potential buffs are accounted for when creating raid dungeons, and while that extra health may not seem like much, it's still enough to potentially unbalance a carefully crafted raid encounter. A 240-skill hat was never meant to become a staple of high-end raids, and as such, it was changed. Really Sticky Glue was providing powerful crowd control -- something TIGHTLY held in check by the developers -- for all classes in PvP, which is in fact a significant balance disruption in certain veins.
The developers are at times forced to make changes to the game that disrupt player practices and are unpopular. These are two of them, but they were done with the long view and the game as a whole in mind. They don't enjoy angering the playerbase, but when it comes to a choice between keeping players happy with the current status quo or maintaining the integrity of the game in the long run, they will choose the latter.
I sport a Tauren-sized browncoat...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5278960&p=#post5279780 | Poster: Caydiem at 10/12/2005 9:57:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Petitoin to Bring Admiral's Hat Pre 1.8 |
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Q u o t e:
I understand what you're saying Cay, but why can't game developers ever meet the players at some sort of middle ground?
Ok, Admiral's Hat was easy to make and might have been fooling with your carefully scripted raid encounters. Why not nerf the item in question, and make a new item with the same capabilities, yet harder to make? This would give players an option to keep the "fun" mechanic, while making the item harder to obtain, and thus not being used on all raid members, but in a more situational manner. It would also help the ailing Tailoring profession, whom currently is only useful for making bags.
Ok, so Really Sticky Glue was easy to obtain, was transferrable, and adversely affected PVP encounters. Why not nerf the item in question, and make a new item with the same cababilities, yet harder to make. It could easily be an Alchemy recipe.
Get the idea? There are many ways of looking at things, and it seems that way too often you guys tend to look at certain things without taking player feelings into consideration, despite what you said to the contrary in the post I'm quoting.
I mean, are the two things I proposed really that far outside of the realm of possibility?
Kainazzo, you're missing the point of both statements I made.
Making another item that gave the same effect, regardless of difficulty, would still have the same unbalancing effect, which is why the developers primarily implement the changes discussed here. Really Sticky Glue was easy to farm, yes, but moreover, it provided every single class with a reliable method of crowd control. There's already something in the game that everyone can get with the appropriate checks and balances, as well as the desired effect -- the Gnomish Net-O-Matic Projector, procured through Gnomish Engineering. By the same token, if you're looking for a Stamina boost outside of PW:F and scrolls, there's one out there for you already -- Lung Juice Cocktail. This is a higher-end repeatable quest item meant to be acquired over and over by the same character to achieve a Stamina boost.
I sport a Tauren-sized browncoat...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5278960&p=#post5279986 | Poster: Caydiem at 10/12/2005 10:03:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Petitoin to Bring Admiral's Hat Pre 1.8 |
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Q u o t e:
Well, that was a pretty good answer. Until the " This game is very precariously balanced" part. I have yet to complain about this game. But not only am I a tailor, im also a mage. Please dont try telling us that balance is of any importance at all to you. I like this game, but you guys really need to get on the ball. Fix mages...fix tailors...fix palys...Dont be sweating the small crap.
The designers that develop classes and professions are different from the designers that handle quests, dungeons, and items. As such, I assure you the class designers aren't really sparing much of a thought for these items, but rather focusing on what their particular job entails.
The "small crap" can still unbalance the game, in all honesty. When designing raid encounters, one must account for every potential buff -- for each and every buff forgotten, there's a potential to trivialize the encounter. There's more than class balance to consider in the long run.
To another poster regarding the Noggenfogger + World Enlarger change, yes, it was great fun to be incredibly small. However, remember that this also made people extremely hard to see in PvP across the board. While significant shrinkage is fine, the combination was over the top in general (aside from the geometry exploits it allowed). That is why it was changed, to my knowledge.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
I sport a Tauren-sized browncoat...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5278960&p=#post5280047 | Poster: Caydiem at 10/12/2005 10:32:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Petitoin to Bring Admiral's Hat Pre 1.8 |
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Q u o t e:
Ok Cay, I have reply to this one.
You say the little things can still trivialize an encounter, and this is why you're working to balance these. Understandable.
Why is it, then, that the LARGE things, like the lack of a Blessing of Salvation skill on the Horde side (yep, I went there) are still unaddressed, patch after patch?
Yes, I understand that will a larger issue there are more things to consider, but this is something your team recognized months ago and raid content keeps getting released without so much as a nod in the Horde direction on this dynamic.
It's an advantage of the Paladin class. If we made Paladins and Shamans roughly the same class with different names, it would be rather ridiculous to name them differently in the first place.
This is the equivalent of a Paladin stating "Where's the Windfury Totem dynamic for Alliance?" I'm aware Blessing of Salvation serves a completely different purpose and it's very useful in raid situations, but as far as I've seen, Horde does just fine with the tools they have available as well, and raid encounters are balanced with both factions in mind.
Regardless, this thread is not about class balance and/or diversity, so let's not get off topic, hm?
I sport a Tauren-sized browncoat...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5278960&p=#post5280325 | Poster: Caydiem at 10/12/2005 10:41:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Petitoin to Bring Admiral's Hat Pre 1.8 |
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Q u o t e:
The answer is that it is a NERF. No matter how meaningless on 10 sta, this change still a NERF. Yes, no one like NERF, so i would like to ask you devs a question, why you devs decide to nerf the pointless hat's sta effect to make your customer unhappy ?
The answer is already written in the multiple blue posts in this topic. I've replied about five times (more than that now, clearly). Read on.
I sport a Tauren-sized browncoat...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5278960&p=#post5280397 | Poster: Caydiem at 10/12/2005 10:42:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Petitoin to Bring Admiral's Hat Pre 1.8 |
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Q u o t e:
Cay, what about the low level Alchemy Pots I always see the MT use when I raid, such as Elixir of Giants? Will these get nerfed?
Potions are anticipated buffs when creating raid content -- I think you'll be fine. ;)
I sport a Tauren-sized browncoat...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5278960&p=#post5280406 | Poster: Caydiem at 10/12/2005 11:00:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Petitoin to Bring Admiral's Hat Pre 1.8 |
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Q u o t e:
The problem is it's an advantage for an entire faction that the other side doesn't receive. If it were an advantage of the Priest class, that'd be a different story, becuase both sides have this class. In any case Tigole confirmed, on the Raid and Dungeon forum sometime back, that they realize this and will look into it. Nothing has been done.
The effect of WF totem, as you allude to in your post, is not within the context of our discussion, because we're talking about raid content and hate management, which WF totem has little to no bearing on. I know that Horde is still advancing, but from what I can tell, at a much slower pace than Alliance, and that could very well be attributed to our agro management issues.
I know, sorry, but the topic of raid encounters and trivializing them got brought up in the melee of posts and it had to be said :)
Once again -- yes, it's a very nice ability. However, raid content is designed with both factions in mind, and as such, you are not at a disadvantage by not having it. Now please keep on topic. :P
I sport a Tauren-sized browncoat...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5278960&p=#post5280588 | Poster: Caydiem at 10/12/2005 8:47:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Petitoin to Bring Admiral's Hat Pre 1.8 *edited post* |
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Don't you find it odd that a crafted item -- lower than 250 skill needed to make it, mind -- was practically a must-have for raids? It makes little sense with the way our items work that the Hat's effect could be used without actually wearing it. Its extreme utility in the highest end content was a red flag; the hat was, to my knowledge, never meant to be used and then pocketed away. The give-and-take of the item was that you could buff your party with it but you had to be wearing it. This has been fixed so the proper advantages and drawbacks apply.
I'm aware many are unhappy with the change, but in all honesty, its old use was a bit ludicrous. ;)
EDIT: I've replied several more times in the thread since, and I ask that you peruse those responses before composing your own... particularly this post: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5279780&tmp=1#post5279780
Thank you.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
I sport a Tauren-sized browncoat...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5278960&p=#post5279214 | Poster: Caydiem at 10/13/2005 11:51:30 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Petition to Bring Admiral's Hat Pre 1.8 |
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Keep in mind I never said the buff was insignificant -- it was merely a question I posed to you folks. ;)
Now, I'd like to explain a little further as to why a "little health buff" can be a big deal.
What's 200 health? (It was +20 Stamina before the patch, remember.) To a caster with 4000 health, that's 5%. To a tank with 8000, it's 2.5%. Small numbers, right? What possible benefit or unbalancing factor could a mere 200 health pose?
I'll tell you what that mere 200 health amounts to. It's a tick on a damage over time debuff. It's a few spare seconds of life that can make the difference between a heal landing or being too late. It gives you an edge -- a minor one, true, but that small edge can be the difference between succeeding and failing.
From a player's angle -- that's why you decided it was worth making "Hat Circles" before these encounters. It was extra health, and while it's not much on its own, that extra health can keep you going when you most need it. It took time out of your raid, but that time was deemed worth the effort. It was a buff that could benefit everyone that was a) cheap at the outset in comparison, and b) repeatable at no further cost to anyone. It wasn't much, but it was enough.
From a designer's angle, however, 200 extra health -- amounting to about 5% of a player's total -- must be factored in when creating and balancing these encounters. It may not seem that something of this caliber could trivialize anything, but understand that every single damage trait of an encounter is compared against how much possible health players can have. In order to preserve the integrity of these encounters, one has to make a choice -- change the item in question, or rebalance every single encounter to account for the potential extra health.
Again, the developers aren't out to nerf "fun". They're making choices as necessary to ensure the game continues to remain balanced. At times there will be unpopular decisions made, but sometimes those changes must be done.
I sport a Tauren-sized browncoat...
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