Poster: Garrotte at 9/19/2005 1:06:23 PM PDT
Subject: What is Expected of Players, Then? |
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This started as a reply to the "Rope Nets" thread, but I figured it deserved it's own post.
This is Caydiem's comment from the thread:
Q u o t e:
Don't you find it a little odd that an item you term "one of the best pally/hunter items in the game" dropped off level 15ish monsters in low level areas?
Items such as the Large Rope Nets and Really Sticky Glue were farmed/quested for constantly and passed along to high level characters for use in PvP. These items were never meant to be used in such a manner; they were simple, limited-use items meant to aid a low-level character in a sticky situation. Because the use of these items in a way other than what was intended was so rampant and significantly affecting PvP, the changes were instituted.
I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely curious here.
What, so we can understand, do you indend to actually happen in PvP? Is there a specific ruleset that you expect to be followed? What do you consider to be the guidelines for "successful and fair" PvP? I think we can all agree that certain actions are or aren't exploits.
I realize this is going to open a mess of a discussion and the likelyhood of flames is high, but I think this needs to be questioned. I humbly ask that everyone try to participate constructively in this discussion. Perhaps this will also open a forum where any changes can be discussed with players and reasons for these changes can be outlined.
If this is already old hat, I apologize...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4949645&p=#post4949645 | | | Poster: Caydiem at 9/19/2005 1:18:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: What is Expected of Players, Then? |
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Note, Garrotte, that players weren't punished at all in this situation. The use of these items was an ingenious move, and no one's faulting the player for finding a new way of giving themselves an advantage in PvP.
However, when such acts go far outside what was intended to the point of posing a balance risk, steps must be taken.
- Caydiem -
/avast
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4949645&p=#post4949873 | Poster: Caydiem at 9/19/2005 1:34:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: What is Expected of Players, Then? |
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Q u o t e:
There are games out there that actually reward this type of out of the box thinking from players, as opposed to nerfing it. I believe they use such mantras as "we've put in the tools, it's up to the players to find out how best to use them." Not "this wasn't what WE wanted you to be doing with them."
This is a fabulous philosophy that can work well in practice.
It can also lead to a seriously unbalanced and, in the end, frustrating experience.
When taking a look at a situation such as with the nets and glue, we don't curse players for their ingenuity and work as fast as we can to douse any spark of innovation present. We review the situation. In this particular case, these items provided a great boost to a few classes in particular. Paladins and Hunters, for example, were given a fairly reliable form of crowd control that would allow them to deal damage using their abilities that rely so much on range.
Now, we do allow for the possibility of those classes having similar crowd control abilities in the form of the Gnomish Net-o-Matic Projector -- but that is an item with a 10 minute cooldown and a chance of failure or backfire which requires that one of your professions be Engineering. Compare this to an easily-farmed and/or hoarded item that provides a fairly reliable root effect with a 3 minute cooldown, and you can see the significant difference in balance with little discernable drawback.
In such a situation, the developers look at the balance as a whole, and decide which is better -- to allow it while changing other aspects of the game (sometimes significant ones) to maintain balance, or change the items causing the balance to be skewed. In this case, the items were changed.
- Caydiem -
/avast
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4949645&p=#post4950135 | Poster: Caydiem at 9/19/2005 4:49:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: What is Expected of Players, Then? |
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Phalon, what you state is in fact a balance risk. Crowd control is one of the closely-watched factors in the game. Hunters and Paladins have limited crowd control -- these items were allowing a greater advantage in certain situations than was designed for such encounters. Just because everyone can level and receive these items does not mean the use of them is any more fair, as it tips the balance significantly.
Take Hunters for example. Say a Hunter and a Warrior both stock up on these items -- fair's fair, right? During PvP, with ample use of these items, who's going to come out on top? The Hunter, almost certainly. The Warrior is unable to use his escape abilities when rooted, and the reliability of these items allowed for a fairly sure 4 second root to do serious damage. There's an unhindered Aimed Shot. The Hunter, which heretofore did not have a reliable way to keep another player at range, now has that ability and becomes far more powerful.
The same token applies to Paladins, who need to keep people close.
In summary, these items granted abilities that were far too powerful in PvP, and trivialized a great deal of class content. What seems like an even playing field on the surface to some did in fact cause a large imbalance on the battlefield.
- Caydiem -
/avast
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4949645&p=#post4953221 | Poster: Caydiem at 9/20/2005 11:48:29 AM PDT
Subject: Re: What is Expected of Players, Then? |
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Crowd control is one of the most meticulously managed aspects of the game, particularly in PvP. Crowd control has diminishing returns if it is a class ability. Of course, there are two primary ways of working outside those restrictions -- Engineering, which carries its own drawbacks, and limited use items, which tend to be quest rewards and are balanced in that you can't keep returning and getting more of them.
I brought this up previously, but I'll emphasize it now.
In Engineering, the ability to stop someone from moving is granted in the Gnomish Net-O-Matic Projector. Being an Engineering item, it requires that you "give up" one of your Profession slots in order to use it. It requires a fairly high skill -- 210 -- so it can't be a "throwaway" profession, either. This particular item can root someone for 10 seconds, which is a decent amount... but carries the additional drawback of a possible failure or backfire.
This item is considered balanced by the design team. It provides an ability that may well be outside your particular class's normal range of skill, but you must dedicate yourself to Engineering and, while it's great when it works, there's a chance it might not -- that's the risk you take when augmenting your character with abilities outside their usual breadth. These aspects as a whole keep it from being overpowered in PvE and particularly PvP.
Now then, let's take the Really Sticky Glue and Large Rope Nets and compare them to an item that is considered balanced, the Net-O-Matic Projector.
These items were both available through low level methods. They required no dedication to a Profession, and the time it took to acquire these -- about two hours Hordeside for five Really Sticky Glue without help, far more quickly with high level assistance... and for Alliance, however long you wanted to farm murlocs and take up inventory space -- is nowhere near equal to the time it takes to acquire the Net-O-Matic Projector. These items provided the same root duration as the Net-O-Matic Projector with a 3 minute cooldown (in comparison with the Projector's 10) and no chance of backfire whatsoever. You can clearly see by comparison which type of item is superior -- and while that's fine for a very limited use item that cannot be acquired again, the ability to indefinitely farm or hoard these items is not at all what developers intended.
If you would like to utilize such crowd control, you can always take up Engineering. Yes, it's a sacrifice, and yes, it may not always work, but that is the risk you take when utilizing a potentially powerful tool. I will take your feedback on this to the developers, but I would not expect this to change back.
- Caydiem -
/avast
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