[ post edited by Kayo ]

[ post edited by Caydiem ]

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So What you're saying here is that you want players to mold their playstyle to how you(developers) want them to play, instead of providing services or changing the game to how your <b>customers</b> want to play?

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Q u o t e:
You do realize that the only reason many people play in the 21-30 bracket is to have fun, not for honor, just for fun. 21-30 was fine and the only reason it's being changed is because the developers want it to be uniform and don't really care about players intent.

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Q u o t e:
By the same mindset, we can also then say that since it was never the "intent" of low level brackets to be full of players who would never level past the highest level of a bracket. That then what was done for the level 60 bracket should be considered for the lvl 30 players.

I think the idea of people with level 30 "twinks" is not the ability of dominating low lvls or non-twinks, but rather that it is the fun of playing with other players of like skill at a level that is fun to level to without going all the way to 60 and having to totaly go crazy with instances and gearing just to compeat with a alt char.

Well that is my feeling at least, for me I feel if the brackets were 21-29 then 30 then 31-39, it would make people happy they can still play at that level in WSG with like skilled players, and would not ruin the enjoyment of people who are not twinked out around thouse levels. I am sure there is enough people at lvl 30 who want to play in instances to keep that as alive as say the level 60 bracket will be alone.

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Would work on my sever, most all our wsg matches are the 21-30 bracket, and almost everyone in them are 30. Our server for 51-60 is all in AV, WSG is rare for any other bracket.

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THEN MAKE IT AS FOLLOWS.
21-30
31-39
40-49
50-59
60

HOW HARD IS IT? my god. it solves every problem, its makes everyone who has half a brain happy. its PERFECT.

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I see you didn't add in that Shaman gets ghost wolf at lvl 20. But I did see the part were you added as power for druids is they get travel form at 30?

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by this time its obvious that this isnt going to be resolved in a favorable way for the players. yes, those are some tough skills, the point is that every character is able to get them, its not like characters cant level to 30.
this is how it goes right now:

a lvl 30 will kick a 21s ass, go figure. it isnt because of his 30 skills. a 29 or 28 will have a pretty damn good chance against a 30.

the change will make it like this:

a lvl 29 will kick a 20s ass, go figure. his lack of his OH NOES 30 skills arent going to make the difference, a 28 and 27 will still have a chance but itll still be tough.

so the real change that is actually relative that i see is that certain classes receive skills at 28 that outweigh power of other classes 28 skills.
in other words.
mages=useless
priests=useless
rogues=own
hunters=own
warriors=gonna get the crap kicked out of themselves. dunno if anyone else saw that yet.

i get it by now. you're not gonna change it. its a difference of opinion. and yeah, my idea has its problems as well. leading me to believe that nothing is gonna be perfect. i just think that its better than the solution you're giving.

i hope 20-29 bg doesnt suck as much as i think it will. and no im not saying all this because im crying about my twink, i dont give a $!@%. ill just make another one for 29. im saying it because 21-30 was FUN. its the only point in the game in which i made friends on both sides of the fight. 15 bucks a month for fun is fine by me. we'll see.

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I'm not sure how much WSG you play, but let me address just the barest basics of WSG strategy: Nothing matters except the flag. That means stopping your flag while moving and moving their flag. Emphasis on stopping your flag from moving because any equal force of attackers will be able to take the flag from a number of defenders.

So while it's very impressive that a number of these abilities exist, it changes very little in the fact that movement speed is the base factor in moving/stopping the flag. The Horde can and will dominate 20-29 because of it when facing an equal opposition. Druids can and will continue to dominate, albiet in a new bracket, due to thier nigh immunity to root/snare in their insta-cast movement form (not to mention stealth & sprint).

Address this, please. I'm in a 20-29 game, I'm 10 people on Alliance defense. The shaman gets the flag and gets a 4s head start thanks to Earthbind. How to I catch him?

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Caydiem, you do know that every single thing that you listed is a choice for anyone in the previous 21-30 level as is in the new 30-39 level. An arguement that level 30s have an advantage over the level 29s etc. can be applied to the 39s vs. the 30s.

As it is a choice to get engineering to 265 at a level 30 it also is a choice to get it to 265 at a level 39. And if its so easy to level up, why would any of this even be a factor, considering everyone could get these same skills you listed and we'd all be happy.

And again, 21-30 WSG was played only for fun whereas the 60s in WSG played for honor. Why change all areas because of a mount and epic items? The agruement that the devs want to make the sections look neat X1-X9 is laughable. Why compromise player enjoyment for looks.

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I would rather have a mage incase you get larger groups because its rare for just 1 person to try to grab the flag

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An equal team consisting of a Shaman who doesn't cure poison himself probably doesn't have any defense besides a warlock sitting in the room with his imp, yes? Regardless, if the devs somehow feel that GW's monopoly on sustainable speed on 20-29 isn't game breaking, we'll have to agree to disagree.

How about druids in 30-39? Cannot be dispelled. Will not stay snared/rooted for more than 1s if the druid knows the game (and will very quickly become immune to both if defenders are in place). Heck, I don't have to explain this to you. How do I stop em? Because we deal with it every day in 21-30, and frankly, it's just easier to hope they get to their base and don't pass to a Warrior or some other high HP class. Am I required to have a rogue on my team to stop Druids?

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I mean anyone (regardless of level in 21-30) can chose to get their engineering to 265, and anyone can chose to become level 30 to obtain these 'class defining abilities' You're answering one question (what do the level 30s do know) with an answer you won't give to the current level 21s (what do we do against the level 30s who are owning us at WSG), the answer you are giving is: level up.

You said it was not meant for people to stay at a certain level just to pvp (Why - who knows), but you yourself admitted to having a level 50 character for the sole purpose of WSG. At 50 it might be a bit different to understand than at 30, but the fun is still being ruined and it's excuse is a hypocritical answer.

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Consistant use of CS? 12s cooldown. Assuming the Hunter catches the druid out of the front gate, it's CS -> Shift -> Shift -> /wave. I can't catch a druid on my 60 Hunter without mounting. 10% movement speed is a good bit of distance over 10s, and this is assuming the Druid decides not to Moonfire you in between those shifts, dazing you.

Midfield Warriors and Rogues can catch a Druid - Momentarily. Charge, hamstring (rage permitting), Shift Shift /wave. The only class that intercept and keep up is a Rogue (once every 5m), and if you have just one point in Natures Grasp, guess how long I'll be behind you? Root, Vanish, break steath, and by the time I'm back on you I can hit you what, for 3s?

These are not even perfect situations I'm describing. The fact is that while the druid is running towards their base they are running towards reinforcements and anyone who can keep pace is running away from them. Those same attackers you just smushed while the druid was snagging the flag are rezzing and prepping to meet your Druid/Hunter/Rogue midfield with a special, edged suprise. Your team is still passing the tunnel and yelling "Stop the flag".

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I wasted my time reading this. This whole game is about twinking out characters, if it wasn't people wouldn't still be playing. Stop kidding yourselves and give the customers what they want, YES, WE ARE CUSTOMERS PAYING FOR A SERVICE. Maybe that should fit somewhere in the developer's logic?

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Thats a really fancy way for saying, if you don't like the way the development team is doing things, you can just stop playing, or you can put up with the changes and just deal with them ;)

The change for me is not going to stop me from playing, just change how I do. Again, as I stated a few times now, it is not the change itself, it is the reason for the change, as the change itself causes the very imbalance they are changing for ;)

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[ post edited by Caydiem ]

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Q u o t e:
First, anyone from 21-30 can reach 265 engineering (I wasn't clear enough, but anyone can level their character to 30, chose engineering, and then get it to 265) if they want to.

About your hunter, I guess 'solely does WSG' is more appropriate, and the reason I wrote that wasn't about the point of you having a 50 character for WSG, but it was to ask if you understood the difference between WSG for fun, and WSG for items and honor.

My accusation of hypocrisy was aimed towards the answer you have give (level up if you don't like the bracket changes) and the answer you don't (level up if you think it is an unfair not to be level 30). I agree that there are differences for anyone at any certain level, but again everyone has the option to all of those advantages with two simple words, level up. What you stated isn't hypocritical because there's no way for it to be (Okay people have HGUE advantages at certain levels - nothing to do about that or anything to say to make it hypocritical), but that wasn't what I was saying was hypocritical.

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What is hypocritical: The answer to 30s angry at the changes is to level up, while there is no answer to level 21-29s complaining that level 30s ruin battlegrounds, when the answer could just as easily be, level up.

And my point, although I've had to change what I'm talking about with more and more posts, is that 21-30 WSG was played solely for fun and there is no reason to change it to make it any less fun. (you asked how is 31-39 BG not fun anymore) and I answered because fun stops when you have to put in more money and a lot more time into a character you play for a certain bracket in WSG. The brackets that don't need to be changed, shouldn't (regardless of what looks neat or not).

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what's Caydiem is saying here is that he understands that some people prefer the 21-30 bracket. he's also saying that it's not intended for people to twink toons.

even if the brackets change people will still twink toons, as a matter of fact i'm rolling a lvl 29 now just to play in the new WSG.

"the logic you present has already been passed along to the develepers, and THEY (THAT'S RIGHT READ IT, HE SAID "THEY") have no desire to keep the 21-30 bracket intact.

don't we the players pay those devs to make a game that we want to play, because i'll be completely honest now, i don't really care what THEY desire, i'm the one paying money to play this game and if i wanna make twinks and play in the 30 bracket then that's what i should be able to do.

un-leveling service would require a great deal of extra work, he says. as if changing it doesn't require a great deal of extra work. and the total time that people will spend lvling/relvling toons will be far more than what it would take them to "un-lvl" us i'm guessing. but really i could be wrong here.

Caydiem, i know that you only work for a company and must keep your views inline with what the company wants. but i'm a player and i as the people that play in that bracket are indeed part of your game population and that you should seriously take into account that we would like to keep that bracket, devs be damned. Who would we have to speak with to keep that bracket the same??? Cause it obviously isn't anyone that works for blizzard.

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THEN MAKE IT AS FOLLOWS.
21-30
31-39
40-49
50-59
60

HOW HARD IS IT? my god. it solves every problem, its makes everyone who has half a brain happy. its PERFECT.

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[ post edited by Caydiem ]

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Caydiem, first of all how exactly can you achieve 255 engineering at lvl 30?! The fact that im the only person that seems to be questioning this leads me to believe 1 of 2 things. Either 1. The CM along with all the players posting dont have a clue what they are talking about (due to the fact that you didnt mention the goblin rocket helm perhaps you been saying 255 by accident?) or 2. I SERIOUSLY been missing out on a extra 15 engineering in which case my ignorance is showing mighty strong at this moment and I am probably being laughed at =). In the game I been playing the maximum is 225 for gnomes the maximum is 240. Also the gnome rocket boots, and the harm prevention belt probably shouldnt have been listed in your argument since the gnome rocket boots hardly work for more than 4 seconds and the harm prevention belt can take you out of an important situation and will definately drop the flag if it glitches.

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Another thing is, your posts are just like many others you list the key abilities you get at lvl 30 and say "Classwise, 21-point talents are achievable, increasing the power of the individual character considerably" before I continue I have to say your list is kind of ridiculous the fact that you included "Demonic Sacrifice (talent)" as a "choice effects that are nice to have in PvP" leads me to believe you need to get more sleep at night ;)

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Now back to that key abilities at lvl 30 and the following paragraph:
"I understand that many of you have enjoyed your time in the Battlegrounds in the 21-30 bracket, but that does not change the fact that the large power gap between levels 21-29 and level 30 exists. The new level brackets do make it more fair for everyone involved. "

To me all your doing is increasing the domination rogues, shamans, and priests have. Sure they lose some stuff, even the rogue loses kidney shot. My future lvl 29 rogue will dominate the lowest bracket battlegrounds make no mistake about it maybe ill post a video for you caydiem =) then you can respond with "However, a twinked 29 will have far less power, relatively, than a twinked level 30" (Which btw once again your thinking of the individuals power rather than how it compares to other classes. You should have been on the UO dev team you would have been really helpful there.)

Regardless of the changes im a really fast leveler and I can always replace my gear its really not a problem however my problem with this system is not the whole "twink or balance" or anything similar to what you been discussing.. my issue is the population. The lvl 21-30 is currently an extremely popular bracket on many of the servers I have chars on. Majority of those players are level 30 and they will have a decision to make on advancing to lvl 39, rerolling to lvl 29, or just stop playing low level BG. Anyway you look at it.. the lowest bracket would lose population and we are going to recieve this increased queue time because you believe lvl30's have an advantage? Sure a month (or few months) down the road when people start locking their chars at lvl 29 (assuming the lvl 39 BGs arent insanely popular in which case the low lvl BG's are screwed) queue time may restore to normal but you're still screwing the population.

I don't know everything about the BG holidays coming up. I hope your right and it will make BG more desirable for the low level bracket but im just going to take a guess and say it won't.

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[ post edited by Caydiem ]

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what's Caydiem is saying here is that he understands that some people prefer the 21-30 bracket. he's also saying that it's not intended for people to twink toons.

even if the brackets change people will still twink toons, as a matter of fact i'm rolling a lvl 29 now just to play in the new WSG.

"the logic you present has already been passed along to the develepers, and THEY (THAT'S RIGHT READ IT, HE SAID "THEY") have no desire to keep the 21-30 bracket intact.

don't we the players pay those devs to make a game that we want to play, because i'll be completely honest now, i don't really care what THEY desire, i'm the one paying money to play this game and if i wanna make twinks and play in the 30 bracket then that's what i should be able to do.

un-leveling service would require a great deal of extra work, he says. as if changing it doesn't require a great deal of extra work. and the total time that people will spend lvling/relvling toons will be far more than what it would take them to "un-lvl" us i'm guessing. but really i could be wrong here.

Caydiem, i know that you only work for a company and must keep your views inline with what the company wants. but i'm a player and i as the people that play in that bracket are indeed part of your game population and that you should seriously take into account that we would like to keep that bracket, devs be damned. Who would we have to speak with to keep that bracket the same??? Cause it obviously isn't anyone that works for blizzard.

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Caydiem, first of all how exactly can you achieve 255 engineering at lvl 30?! The fact that im the only person that seems to be questioning this leads me to believe 1 of 2 things. Either 1. The CM along with all the players posting dont have a clue what they are talking about (due to the fact that you didnt mention the goblin rocket helm perhaps you been saying 255 by accident?) or 2. I SERIOUSLY been missing out on a extra 15 engineering in which case my ignorance is showing mighty strong at this moment and I am probably being laughed at =). In the game I been playing the maximum is 225 for gnomes the maximum is 240. Also the gnome rocket boots, and the harm prevention belt probably shouldnt have been listed in your argument since the gnome rocket boots hardly work for more than 4 seconds and the harm prevention belt can take you out of an important situation and will definately drop the flag if it glitches.

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Another thing is, your posts are just like many others you list the key abilities you get at lvl 30 and say "Classwise, 21-point talents are achievable, increasing the power of the individual character considerably" before I continue I have to say your list is kind of ridiculous the fact that you included "Demonic Sacrifice (talent)" as a "choice effects that are nice to have in PvP" leads me to believe you need to get more sleep at night ;)

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Now back to that key abilities at lvl 30 and the following paragraph:
"I understand that many of you have enjoyed your time in the Battlegrounds in the 21-30 bracket, but that does not change the fact that the large power gap between levels 21-29 and level 30 exists. The new level brackets do make it more fair for everyone involved. "

To me all your doing is increasing the domination rogues, shamans, and priests have. Sure they lose some stuff, even the rogue loses kidney shot. My future lvl 29 rogue will dominate the lowest bracket battlegrounds make no mistake about it maybe ill post a video for you caydiem =) then you can respond with "However, a twinked 29 will have far less power, relatively, than a twinked level 30" (Which btw once again your thinking of the individuals power rather than how it compares to other classes. You should have been on the UO dev team you would have been really helpful there.)

Regardless of the changes im a really fast leveler and I can always replace my gear its really not a problem however my problem with this system is not the whole "twink or balance" or anything similar to what you been discussing.. my issue is the population. The lvl 21-30 is currently an extremely popular bracket on many of the servers I have chars on. Majority of those players are level 30 and they will have a decision to make on advancing to lvl 39, rerolling to lvl 29, or just stop playing low level BG. Anyway you look at it.. the lowest bracket would lose population and we are going to recieve this increased queue time because you believe lvl30's have an advantage? Sure a month (or few months) down the road when people start locking their chars at lvl 29 (assuming the lvl 39 BGs arent insanely popular in which case the low lvl BG's are screwed) queue time may restore to normal but you're still screwing the population.

I don't know everything about the BG holidays coming up. I hope your right and it will make BG more desirable for the low level bracket but im just going to take a guess and say it won't.

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[ post edited by Caydiem ]

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I'm going to stand by my statements. WSG 21-30 is balance no matter what people said. It is why a lot of people play it, love it and why a lot of people are fighting for it in the forums. Most of the engineering items are not bind on pick up. They can be used by a 20+ and they don't have to choose goblin or gnomish.

I'm pretty sure this is not a discussion. Cay is pushing her own ideas or the devs ideas to us. She does not recognize other people's points of view. This thread is basically one big propaganda on why 20-29 is more balance than 21-30. Of course if you play wsg 21-30, you will realize 21-30 is balance and 20-29 isn't. So no matter how many arguments we put in this thread, she will just say that level 20-29 is more balance, this is what the devs want so deal with it.

Blizz must be afraid that they will lose customers over this cause a lot of people did threaten to quit. I know for a fact a lot of people will quit. They must have told the CMs to spread propaganda about how 20-29 is a lot better than 21-30 so that people will give it a chance and stay rather than cancelling their accounts.

This is the only logical thing why the CMs are trying to say 20-29 is more balance. A lot of horde already said it isn't balance. A lot of alliance already said it isn't balance. So why would the CMs say it is balance when clearly it isn't.

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What you say could be true Cay. It probably is. You took all of our ideas and presented it to the devs and they said no. You are doing your job no matter if what you say is true or not.

There's just something that do not add up. I have pretty much a wide diverse of characters in WoW. I pretty much visit every class forums waiting for feedback when the class is in the spotlight. Even for the smallest feedback, I could be waiting for weeks. Sometimes there won't be a feedback in two weeks since the CMs need time to talk to the devs. I understand that feedback requires time so I wait patiently.

When all these things started in another thread about wsg 21-30 changing back to wsg 20-29, a lot of people oppose to it presented you with a lot of ideas of how this is not balance. You told us your job is to represent the playerbases ideas and not to push your own. So you took our feedback and gave it to the devs. So I said, we will sit down and wait for a reply.

You came back 2 hours later and just said that the Devs said No. It doesn't add up. It took CMs weeks to come back to us for a simple feedback in a lot of class forums. You came back in two hours. Are you sure you discussed all the ideas of the players back to the devs? I thought these things takes time, sometimes even weeks and yet you come back in 2 hours.

It just doesn't add up.

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[ post edited by Caydiem ]

[ post edited by Caydiem ]

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Q u o t e:
So What you're saying here is that you want players to mold their playstyle to how you(developers) want them to play, instead of providing services or changing the game to how your <b>customers</b> want to play?

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You do realize that the only reason many people play in the 21-30 bracket is to have fun, not for honor, just for fun. 21-30 was fine and the only reason it's being changed is because the developers want it to be uniform and don't really care about players intent.

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By the same mindset, we can also then say that since it was never the "intent" of low level brackets to be full of players who would never level past the highest level of a bracket. That then what was done for the level 60 bracket should be considered for the lvl 30 players.

I think the idea of people with level 30 "twinks" is not the ability of dominating low lvls or non-twinks, but rather that it is the fun of playing with other players of like skill at a level that is fun to level to without going all the way to 60 and having to totaly go crazy with instances and gearing just to compeat with a alt char.

Well that is my feeling at least, for me I feel if the brackets were 21-29 then 30 then 31-39, it would make people happy they can still play at that level in WSG with like skilled players, and would not ruin the enjoyment of people who are not twinked out around thouse levels. I am sure there is enough people at lvl 30 who want to play in instances to keep that as alive as say the level 60 bracket will be alone.

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Would work on my sever, most all our wsg matches are the 21-30 bracket, and almost everyone in them are 30. Our server for 51-60 is all in AV, WSG is rare for any other bracket.

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THEN MAKE IT AS FOLLOWS.
21-30
31-39
40-49
50-59
60

HOW HARD IS IT? my god. it solves every problem, its makes everyone who has half a brain happy. its PERFECT.

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[ post edited by Caydiem ]

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I see you didn't add in that Shaman gets ghost wolf at lvl 20. But I did see the part were you added as power for druids is they get travel form at 30?

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by this time its obvious that this isnt going to be resolved in a favorable way for the players. yes, those are some tough skills, the point is that every character is able to get them, its not like characters cant level to 30.
this is how it goes right now:

a lvl 30 will kick a 21s ass, go figure. it isnt because of his 30 skills. a 29 or 28 will have a pretty damn good chance against a 30.

the change will make it like this:

a lvl 29 will kick a 20s ass, go figure. his lack of his OH NOES 30 skills arent going to make the difference, a 28 and 27 will still have a chance but itll still be tough.

so the real change that is actually relative that i see is that certain classes receive skills at 28 that outweigh power of other classes 28 skills.
in other words.
mages=useless
priests=useless
rogues=own
hunters=own
warriors=gonna get the crap kicked out of themselves. dunno if anyone else saw that yet.

i get it by now. you're not gonna change it. its a difference of opinion. and yeah, my idea has its problems as well. leading me to believe that nothing is gonna be perfect. i just think that its better than the solution you're giving.

i hope 20-29 bg doesnt suck as much as i think it will. and no im not saying all this because im crying about my twink, i dont give a $!@%. ill just make another one for 29. im saying it because 21-30 was FUN. its the only point in the game in which i made friends on both sides of the fight. 15 bucks a month for fun is fine by me. we'll see.

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I'm not sure how much WSG you play, but let me address just the barest basics of WSG strategy: Nothing matters except the flag. That means stopping your flag while moving and moving their flag. Emphasis on stopping your flag from moving because any equal force of attackers will be able to take the flag from a number of defenders.

So while it's very impressive that a number of these abilities exist, it changes very little in the fact that movement speed is the base factor in moving/stopping the flag. The Horde can and will dominate 20-29 because of it when facing an equal opposition. Druids can and will continue to dominate, albiet in a new bracket, due to thier nigh immunity to root/snare in their insta-cast movement form (not to mention stealth & sprint).

Address this, please. I'm in a 20-29 game, I'm 10 people on Alliance defense. The shaman gets the flag and gets a 4s head start thanks to Earthbind. How to I catch him?

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Caydiem, you do know that every single thing that you listed is a choice for anyone in the previous 21-30 level as is in the new 30-39 level. An arguement that level 30s have an advantage over the level 29s etc. can be applied to the 39s vs. the 30s.

As it is a choice to get engineering to 265 at a level 30 it also is a choice to get it to 265 at a level 39. And if its so easy to level up, why would any of this even be a factor, considering everyone could get these same skills you listed and we'd all be happy.

And again, 21-30 WSG was played only for fun whereas the 60s in WSG played for honor. Why change all areas because of a mount and epic items? The agruement that the devs want to make the sections look neat X1-X9 is laughable. Why compromise player enjoyment for looks.

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I would rather have a mage incase you get larger groups because its rare for just 1 person to try to grab the flag

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An equal team consisting of a Shaman who doesn't cure poison himself probably doesn't have any defense besides a warlock sitting in the room with his imp, yes? Regardless, if the devs somehow feel that GW's monopoly on sustainable speed on 20-29 isn't game breaking, we'll have to agree to disagree.

How about druids in 30-39? Cannot be dispelled. Will not stay snared/rooted for more than 1s if the druid knows the game (and will very quickly become immune to both if defenders are in place). Heck, I don't have to explain this to you. How do I stop em? Because we deal with it every day in 21-30, and frankly, it's just easier to hope they get to their base and don't pass to a Warrior or some other high HP class. Am I required to have a rogue on my team to stop Druids?

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I mean anyone (regardless of level in 21-30) can chose to get their engineering to 265, and anyone can chose to become level 30 to obtain these 'class defining abilities' You're answering one question (what do the level 30s do know) with an answer you won't give to the current level 21s (what do we do against the level 30s who are owning us at WSG), the answer you are giving is: level up.

You said it was not meant for people to stay at a certain level just to pvp (Why - who knows), but you yourself admitted to having a level 50 character for the sole purpose of WSG. At 50 it might be a bit different to understand than at 30, but the fun is still being ruined and it's excuse is a hypocritical answer.

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Consistant use of CS? 12s cooldown. Assuming the Hunter catches the druid out of the front gate, it's CS -> Shift -> Shift -> /wave. I can't catch a druid on my 60 Hunter without mounting. 10% movement speed is a good bit of distance over 10s, and this is assuming the Druid decides not to Moonfire you in between those shifts, dazing you.

Midfield Warriors and Rogues can catch a Druid - Momentarily. Charge, hamstring (rage permitting), Shift Shift /wave. The only class that intercept and keep up is a Rogue (once every 5m), and if you have just one point in Natures Grasp, guess how long I'll be behind you? Root, Vanish, break steath, and by the time I'm back on you I can hit you what, for 3s?

These are not even perfect situations I'm describing. The fact is that while the druid is running towards their base they are running towards reinforcements and anyone who can keep pace is running away from them. Those same attackers you just smushed while the druid was snagging the flag are rezzing and prepping to meet your Druid/Hunter/Rogue midfield with a special, edged suprise. Your team is still passing the tunnel and yelling "Stop the flag".

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Q u o t e:
I wasted my time reading this. This whole game is about twinking out characters, if it wasn't people wouldn't still be playing. Stop kidding yourselves and give the customers what they want, YES, WE ARE CUSTOMERS PAYING FOR A SERVICE. Maybe that should fit somewhere in the developer's logic?

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Q u o t e:
Thats a really fancy way for saying, if you don't like the way the development team is doing things, you can just stop playing, or you can put up with the changes and just deal with them ;)

The change for me is not going to stop me from playing, just change how I do. Again, as I stated a few times now, it is not the change itself, it is the reason for the change, as the change itself causes the very imbalance they are changing for ;)

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[ post edited by Caydiem ]

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Q u o t e:
First, anyone from 21-30 can reach 265 engineering (I wasn't clear enough, but anyone can level their character to 30, chose engineering, and then get it to 265) if they want to.

About your hunter, I guess 'solely does WSG' is more appropriate, and the reason I wrote that wasn't about the point of you having a 50 character for WSG, but it was to ask if you understood the difference between WSG for fun, and WSG for items and honor.

My accusation of hypocrisy was aimed towards the answer you have give (level up if you don't like the bracket changes) and the answer you don't (level up if you think it is an unfair not to be level 30). I agree that there are differences for anyone at any certain level, but again everyone has the option to all of those advantages with two simple words, level up. What you stated isn't hypocritical because there's no way for it to be (Okay people have HGUE advantages at certain levels - nothing to do about that or anything to say to make it hypocritical), but that wasn't what I was saying was hypocritical.

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Q u o t e:
What is hypocritical: The answer to 30s angry at the changes is to level up, while there is no answer to level 21-29s complaining that level 30s ruin battlegrounds, when the answer could just as easily be, level up.

And my point, although I've had to change what I'm talking about with more and more posts, is that 21-30 WSG was played solely for fun and there is no reason to change it to make it any less fun. (you asked how is 31-39 BG not fun anymore) and I answered because fun stops when you have to put in more money and a lot more time into a character you play for a certain bracket in WSG. The brackets that don't need to be changed, shouldn't (regardless of what looks neat or not).

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Q u o t e:
what's Caydiem is saying here is that he understands that some people prefer the 21-30 bracket. he's also saying that it's not intended for people to twink toons.

even if the brackets change people will still twink toons, as a matter of fact i'm rolling a lvl 29 now just to play in the new WSG.

"the logic you present has already been passed along to the develepers, and THEY (THAT'S RIGHT READ IT, HE SAID "THEY") have no desire to keep the 21-30 bracket intact.

don't we the players pay those devs to make a game that we want to play, because i'll be completely honest now, i don't really care what THEY desire, i'm the one paying money to play this game and if i wanna make twinks and play in the 30 bracket then that's what i should be able to do.

un-leveling service would require a great deal of extra work, he says. as if changing it doesn't require a great deal of extra work. and the total time that people will spend lvling/relvling toons will be far more than what it would take them to "un-lvl" us i'm guessing. but really i could be wrong here.

Caydiem, i know that you only work for a company and must keep your views inline with what the company wants. but i'm a player and i as the people that play in that bracket are indeed part of your game population and that you should seriously take into account that we would like to keep that bracket, devs be damned. Who would we have to speak with to keep that bracket the same??? Cause it obviously isn't anyone that works for blizzard.

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Caydiem, first of all how exactly can you achieve 255 engineering at lvl 30?! The fact that im the only person that seems to be questioning this leads me to believe 1 of 2 things. Either 1. The CM along with all the players posting dont have a clue what they are talking about (due to the fact that you didnt mention the goblin rocket helm perhaps you been saying 255 by accident?) or 2. I SERIOUSLY been missing out on a extra 15 engineering in which case my ignorance is showing mighty strong at this moment and I am probably being laughed at =). In the game I been playing the maximum is 225 for gnomes the maximum is 240. Also the gnome rocket boots, and the harm prevention belt probably shouldnt have been listed in your argument since the gnome rocket boots hardly work for more than 4 seconds and the harm prevention belt can take you out of an important situation and will definately drop the flag if it glitches.

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Another thing is, your posts are just like many others you list the key abilities you get at lvl 30 and say "Classwise, 21-point talents are achievable, increasing the power of the individual character considerably" before I continue I have to say your list is kind of ridiculous the fact that you included "Demonic Sacrifice (talent)" as a "choice effects that are nice to have in PvP" leads me to believe you need to get more sleep at night ;)

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Q u o t e:
Now back to that key abilities at lvl 30 and the following paragraph:
"I understand that many of you have enjoyed your time in the Battlegrounds in the 21-30 bracket, but that does not change the fact that the large power gap between levels 21-29 and level 30 exists. The new level brackets do make it more fair for everyone involved. "

To me all your doing is increasing the domination rogues, shamans, and priests have. Sure they lose some stuff, even the rogue loses kidney shot. My future lvl 29 rogue will dominate the lowest bracket battlegrounds make no mistake about it maybe ill post a video for you caydiem =) then you can respond with "However, a twinked 29 will have far less power, relatively, than a twinked level 30" (Which btw once again your thinking of the individuals power rather than how it compares to other classes. You should have been on the UO dev team you would have been really helpful there.)

Regardless of the changes im a really fast leveler and I can always replace my gear its really not a problem however my problem with this system is not the whole "twink or balance" or anything similar to what you been discussing.. my issue is the population. The lvl 21-30 is currently an extremely popular bracket on many of the servers I have chars on. Majority of those players are level 30 and they will have a decision to make on advancing to lvl 39, rerolling to lvl 29, or just stop playing low level BG. Anyway you look at it.. the lowest bracket would lose population and we are going to recieve this increased queue time because you believe lvl30's have an advantage? Sure a month (or few months) down the road when people start locking their chars at lvl 29 (assuming the lvl 39 BGs arent insanely popular in which case the low lvl BG's are screwed) queue time may restore to normal but you're still screwing the population.

I don't know everything about the BG holidays coming up. I hope your right and it will make BG more desirable for the low level bracket but im just going to take a guess and say it won't.

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[ post edited by Caydiem ]

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Q u o t e:
I'm going to stand by my statements. WSG 21-30 is balance no matter what people said. It is why a lot of people play it, love it and why a lot of people are fighting for it in the forums. Most of the engineering items are not bind on pick up. They can be used by a 20+ and they don't have to choose goblin or gnomish.

I'm pretty sure this is not a discussion. Cay is pushing her own ideas or the devs ideas to us. She does not recognize other people's points of view. This thread is basically one big propaganda on why 20-29 is more balance than 21-30. Of course if you play wsg 21-30, you will realize 21-30 is balance and 20-29 isn't. So no matter how many arguments we put in this thread, she will just say that level 20-29 is more balance, this is what the devs want so deal with it.

Blizz must be afraid that they will lose customers over this cause a lot of people did threaten to quit. I know for a fact a lot of people will quit. They must have told the CMs to spread propaganda about how 20-29 is a lot better than 21-30 so that people will give it a chance and stay rather than cancelling their accounts.

This is the only logical thing why the CMs are trying to say 20-29 is more balance. A lot of horde already said it isn't balance. A lot of alliance already said it isn't balance. So why would the CMs say it is balance when clearly it isn't.

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What you say could be true Cay. It probably is. You took all of our ideas and presented it to the devs and they said no. You are doing your job no matter if what you say is true or not.

There's just something that do not add up. I have pretty much a wide diverse of characters in WoW. I pretty much visit every class forums waiting for feedback when the class is in the spotlight. Even for the smallest feedback, I could be waiting for weeks. Sometimes there won't be a feedback in two weeks since the CMs need time to talk to the devs. I understand that feedback requires time so I wait patiently.

When all these things started in another thread about wsg 21-30 changing back to wsg 20-29, a lot of people oppose to it presented you with a lot of ideas of how this is not balance. You told us your job is to represent the playerbases ideas and not to push your own. So you took our feedback and gave it to the devs. So I said, we will sit down and wait for a reply.

You came back 2 hours later and just said that the Devs said No. It doesn't add up. It took CMs weeks to come back to us for a simple feedback in a lot of class forums. You came back in two hours. Are you sure you discussed all the ideas of the players back to the devs? I thought these things takes time, sometimes even weeks and yet you come back in 2 hours.

It just doesn't add up.

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[ post edited by Caydiem ]