Poster: Bertonious at 5/26/2005 1:16:47 PM PDT Subject: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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What happened to the Warcraft storyline? Why has Jaina been sitting in Theramore since November? When is the King of Stormwind coming back? Why have Cairne and Thrall sat in the major cities for the past 6 months?
WoW is a great game, but what happened to the storyline?
When WoW was released back in November, the reason why I was so excited about the game was because of how dynamic it was going to be. An ongoing storyline between the Alliance and Horde that I could be involved in. Cutscenes that would unexpectedly entertain me as I logged into the game. This, to me, is by far the most lacking aspect of WoW. It's really disappointing that the storyline has just come to a halt since the Custom Campaigns of Warcraft 3. I absolutely loved the Warcraft campaigns for their creative storyline.
It seems like the WoW crew have just been so involved in balancing and bug/exploit fixes to the point where my most loved aspect of Warcraft (the storyline) has been pushed aside and forgotten.
Was the Warcraft storyline ever planned to continue into WoW?
If so, I really think Blizzard have got their priorites wrong in terms of adding new patches and content to the game.
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 1:32:38 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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As a gamer primarily interested in lore, I am right there with you on your concerns in this regard, but I don't believe you quite grasp the scope of what you ask.
The game must remain accessible to everyone. If Thrall dies permanently, say, that's a lot of content to shift and rewrite (as he's central to many quests), content that's already done and functioning. This then takes away time from the developers that could be used to develop new content.
You want to be involved in the storyline and I completely empathize with you. You want to be the hero. The problem is that you have thousands of other people on the same realm with you that also want to be the hero, and... well, if you make one or two heroes, you leave out a vast majority of the population. Everyone is a paying customer and a part of this world, and they deserve an equal chance at experiencing the game content.
Think of each major NPC -- which would drive the story if we used a more dynamic system -- as the center of a spider web. Pluck them away, and all those strands either go with it or are broken. The game is very intricate, and sweeping changes would severely change the experience of one side, possibly to their detriment. People play a game to have fun. To seriously unbalance the way the game plays -- particularly on PvP realms -- would drastically affect the enjoyment for the players.
I'm aware that cutscenes have been done before in other games, but never with a great deal of grace. Such scenes that some are experiencing but others are not in a persistent online world are difficult to master, as you can't really pull someone out of the world and action like that. I'm not ruling it out, but again, solutions that have been used elsewhere would... not be the best idea on PvP realms. :P
I won't go into the trials of dynamic actors; even scripted events, however, must take into account the vastly different playstyles of our playerbase. For however many people there are like you, folks who wish to see big, story-driven changes occur, there are also others who consider such changes to be a major inconvenience in playing a game with which they are comfortable and knowledgeable. We have to take a great deal into consideration.
The storyline of Azeroth is not lost and I am not saying that there will never be huge changes to the existing gameworld driven by the lore, but I just wanted to explain that there are many things to consider before putting such a plan into motion.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 1:49:55 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: A Blizzard rep thinks this? Really?
Then why does Blizzard ignore all the calls for ways for casual gamers (those who can't devote the single unbroken stretch of time necessary to participate in a raid) to obtain some of the better equipment?
Then why doesn't Blizzard do something to help out the mid-level players who spend more time as a ghost than alive because of all the high level players constantly killing them for sport?
Then why doesn't Blizzard increase the respawn rate of minerals so people other than farmers can get some? (At one point I had 3 quests requiring 40 mithril bars each. It took me over a month to complete that quest, and about half was bought at the auction house as I got the money to buy it because it just wasn't available for mining.)
I could go on...
(Calenn, 49 paladin, sargeras)
They have the chance. Everyone has the opportunity to go on large raids. If their schedule does not permit for that sort of thing, then they may not see certain parts of the high-end game, but they have the ability to get there. No account is closed off from that. We do reward those who have put in more time, and that will probably not change.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 1:58:55 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: It was very disappointing when, after many weeks of work, my guild finally managed to topple Onyxia for the first time on the server, and (save for the 2 hour buff in orgrimmar and the guildmaster's new ring from turning in the head) our kill had absolutely no effect on the world. None of the 39 other players that helped with the kill experienced anything whatsoever besides bidding for loot. We did not, as it were, send shockwaves throughout Azeroth. We could not hear Nefarion's billowing roar of anger from high atop Blackrock Mountain as we felled the broodmother of the black dragonflight.
We simply..killed a mob, got some loot, and went home. A week later Onyxia respawned for us and we killed her again, and have done so every 5~ days for a month. Nobody cares except the lowbies in Orgrimmar receiving an insanely nice buff for our efforts.
So Nefarian bellows... except... hm, wasn't I in Blackrock Spire at that very instant, staring up at him? He didn't seem to be bellowing. Many raid groups would vouch for the same.
Again, I completely understand what you're looking for here, but you have to be exceedingly cautious with such things; with your example, something that is purely lore-based would be broken continuity-wise by those brave adventurers exploring the Spire. And scripting mobs to do what you ask in instances when groups are at varying points in their crawl would be nigh impossible.
I know what you're saying and, as a gamer, I sympathize with the desire to leave one's mark upon the world. But by the same token, you're in a persistent world with thousands of other players. There is no way that the developers could keep up with the content demands of an ever-shifting world, as it takes far more time to make something from concept to completion and test it than it does for players to exhaust that content. That is why much of an MMO's content is repeatable: to get the most mileage out of development costs and time.
Once more, I'm not saying significant marks on the world by players will never happen; I'm just outlining the inherent complications of such an act.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 2:24:12 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: Can Blizzard employees take control of NPC's like the EQ GM's could? Would be fun if out of the blue one day, Thrall organized a raid on an alliance town and led them in battle.
See, I wasn't going to get into this, but you had to bring it up... ;)
Dynamic actors would be impossible to manage in a game of this magnitude, at least with our systems and situation.
Consider that we do not use volunteer programs due to legal concerns (and the management issues that can arise are also a serious contributing factor). Therefore, any actors we used would have to be employed by the company.
Next, understand that we would certainly not take away from customer support to do such a thing, as every GM is needed to handle the legitimate customer concerns over the course of the day. As such, no one could really do "double-duty". Everyone's busy enough doing their own jobs. They'd probably have to be dedicated actors.
And THEN consider that said actors would have to be quick and accurate typists, with a near-encyclopedic knowledge of the game's lore in order to respond to players in real-time as accurately as they could. They'd need to be decent communicators and writers, role-players who can speak in character without deliberation. That's a pretty tall order, because it's not something that can be easily quantified without seeing someone in action doing that very thing. I'll get into the business side of it later...
So now assume you've gotten leave to get a team of dedicated dynamic actors. You need to cover nearly one hundred realms with these people. For small appearances, it wouldn't be much of a big deal, but for major events it's imperative that they happen simultaneously to prevent spoilers and potential overcrowding problems. That may need to happen at the same time internationally, which is a potential nightmare. That means you need a lot of people.
There's the business side of it, too. If you keep these events small, no one knows they happen until after the fact, and it affects a very small portion of the playerbase. Advertise them and make them a big event and you have a potential server crisis on your hands, as thousands of players in one place can cause severe issues. The question becomes whether or not it's worth it to keep such a crew active, and normally the answer is no.
I love doing that sort of thing personally, but at this time it's simply not feasible.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 2:54:29 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: If ever they add Hyjal or something, have a pass that goes there. In order to get into the zone, you need to clear the pass, which will have various bosses along the way, getting progressively harder and harder. Once you kill the final boss, the zone is opened for all to enjoy.
While not for Hyjal, I can say that the developers agree this line of thinking is a good idea for certain content... you may see something like it in the future. :)
As for the subject as a whole, this is something very near and dear to my heart as a role-player and writer. I have a great deal of experience in this particular field, and as such I'll talk your ear off all day about it if you get me started. I positively adore the idea of having a more dynamic storyline, but at the same time I'm well-acquainted with the restrictions and considerations of such a program and know how our particular situation happens to be internally. I do not believe you'll see broad, sweeping changes to the game in the name of lore for some time, if at all.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:02:48 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: I totally agree with the original poster. Here is where the endgame should come into play. Because there are no world events, this is how people get to 60 and get burned fast. Instances are cool and all but we all know they lose thier luster fast right about the time you've either lost rolling on much needed upgrades or flat out dont ever see an upgrade you need drop.
Perhaps if the ideas expressed here could be included in the endgame maybe WoW will get some bite back. Perhaps legendary instanced quests where you zone into an instance and either fight with or against a Hero from WoW lore.
Me, I had hoped at some point for WoW we would get world events. I know its not just me but Blizzard said they would definately do this. Only thing close I have seen to something like this was the last nites of open beta. After seeing that I thought for sure, it would be a normal occurrance in WoW. I sure hope we see something like this, would be nice thats for sure
Maul
The End-of-Beta event was largely my own work (I'm evil), and we only had a couple realms to cover. With nearly one hundred realms and paying customers, there's a lot more to take in and consider now.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:05:40 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: Nothing has made me want to quit more than this sentence.
[/quote]
I believe she means: "don't expect the silithid to overrun and destroy Gadget any time soon."
Not: "Don't expect us to ever have any story driven events that lead players to Northrend or unlock zones for the server."
Don't stress too hard, Blizz has been vocal on this topic since beta.
You're correct -- thanks for the clarification. :)
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:12:55 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: Cay.. as others have already mentioned..
Did Blizzard not look at FFXI at all???
My remarks will seem hostile.. but this is only because of the incredible degree of dissapointing Im feeling about Wow in this regard. Really it's to the point where I'm sad of seeing such a waste considering the incredible potential this game had.
What about instanced cutscenes and stories?? this is exactly how FFXI worked, and since WoW supposedly made such extensive use of instancing.. I figured it was logical... oh well...
Cutscenes.. omg PLEASE cutscenes... Blizzard is literally among the top 3 prerendered CG cutscene producers in the game industry in my opinion... You guys are artists.. yet WoW... nothing...
Honestly.. I already hit 60.. and really enjoy this game.. but.. to b honest.. FFXI is calling me back.. and certainly not so I can go run dungeons over.. and OVER for some random item.. I honestly couldnt care less about an item.. I wanna experience something.. and WoW.. honestly.. is a far less intriguing experience than I was expecting...
Cay.. Im srry but what you describe tells me you guys set the bar WAY WAAAYYY low when making this game.. no ambitions of creating something new whatsoever..
As a friendly reminder, I cannot directly discuss other games, and if this becomes a comparison thread it will be locked. Keep it on topic, please. :)
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:15:04 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: I think, Cay, what most people here want are more ingame GM driven events. :/ I know alot of other MMO's have had them, and they differ on every server.
Are we ever going to see something like this?
Please see Post #43.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:17:13 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: FF XI handled in-game cutscenes very, very well. "With grace", so to speak.
I cannot argue the point due to the fact that I can't directly speak about other games (and again, this is not a comparison thread)... but let me state that I'm well aware what games have used cutscenes, I have experienced them personally, and I took them into consideration when writing that post. There are many things to address when creating in-game cutscenes that take you out of the action in a persistent world.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:29:02 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: Yeaaaaaa.....
Then explain to me how the burning legion attacked some of the capitals during beta?
Even things such as this,which don't REALLY have any impact on the world would be good...
pwned?
Not "pwned", my friend, because I was the one behind that event and I'll gladly explain how we did it.
First, the number of realms we had to cover can be counted on one hand without making use of all my fingers.
Second, as it was the end of Open Beta and no one was yet paying for the service, the GMs had the ability to aid with the setup and execution of the event, which still took considerable time and manpower.
Third, as no one was paying for the service, no one was complaining about durability loss or gameplay disruption because, hey, it was the end of beta.
Now that we have nearly one hundred realms in North America alone, not to mention the huge international numbers as well, the scope of such an event has changed somewhat. The impact would be different as well, and while many people enjoyed it, part of that enjoyment came from the fact that it didn't really matter what happened to your character. If a huge Infernal squatted on the Orgrimmar auction house for a day, I think more people would be upset than pleased.
I suggest in the future you attempt to "pwn" someone with less knowledge. :)
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:29:52 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: In my opinion, on earlier posts, Blizzard should hire volenteers to organize raids on each server. These "volenteers" would control Thrall or Jaina, etc. Im sure you can find "experianced, and skilled" players who would do this for you. Though, of course, Blizzard would have to lay down rules and make people sign contracts and stuff like that, so it's probably more trouble than it's worth.
See post 43 on why volunteers are not used.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:31:31 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: No offense Cay, but Guild Wars did it. You both offer excellent games I and own both, but GW offers you the ability to make your mark and see the effect within a persistent world. I understand it's different than WoW, but meld the technologies a bit.
Just a suggestion.
This is not a comparison thread -- but I would suggest if you ever do compare games to do so in the same genre. World of Warcraft is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:32:11 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: Cay I dont think they would be too mad if there was no durability loss during such an "event" ya think?
That requires significant development time to implement and use properly. It's not just a switch. :P
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:36:13 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: Well, of course I understand that they would have to be qualified. You can't have "random" people doing this for you. That's why there should be a "interview". People who are like you; who understand the game, are good writes, and has more than basic knowledge. I know this would never happen any time soon if at all, but I still think that it would add to the game.
(You guys have more important things to be doing anyway, sry for my inability to see things through)
Actually, if you read the entirety of post 43, you would see I stated that volunteers cannot be used for legal and managerial reasons.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:41:45 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: Here's a suggestion to make the task more managable.
Have "GM Events" based on gamer accomplished events. EG: The first time Blackwing is ever killed, the evening 2 days following, GMs host an event to celebrate this, or perhaps move forth the story.
This would vastly lower than number of "Events" the GMs need to host because instead of having to replicate the event at the exact same time across 100 servers, they would only need to do it 1 time for each server, and for the most part, on different days.
Not only would this be a far more realistic and manageable outlet for GMs to host Events, but it would also make the "first to kill X mob" feel extra special and leave their "mark on the world" by being the ones who triggered this event. And at the same time, everyone on the server can still join in. So everybody wins.
If two realms do it at the same time (or overlapping)? Three? Five? Is it fair that one group gets their "party" right away and others are delayed due to lack of personnel? Is it fair to everyone waiting in queue that the GMs are instead partying with a high-level guild? Even a few GMs away increases the time it takes to get support. And this is a very real and possible occurrence -- every major guild will be striving to be first on something, and that can lead to the problem described above.
I understand where you're coming from, but the support of such a thing across as many realms as we have is still too difficult to manage, and we do not want to sacrifice customer support for such events.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:43:16 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: Yea...sorry, I swear I read that post many times before writing what I did. Your right. Could'nt you hire people with min. wage or something, or is there just something im not seeing about this?
(sry to waste your time answering my posts, I do thank you for answering mine and just in general about the origanal topic about storylines)
Again, then see the business end of it in post 43. :P I covered all the bases; I know this part of the industry very well.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 4:02:12 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: I have heard you talk alot about the number of servers and the difficulty that brings with it in introducing events. However, I'm not sure the paying customers have much sympathy. You have many servers because you have many paying customers. Therefore, you have more money to invest in making them happy.
If you only had 20 thousand customers and two servers, would it be different? I doubt it, you'd be underwater, and the game would be finished.
Basically, the success of your game should not be used as an argument for not being able to introduce dynamic content. You have to figure out how to make it work, don't you?
In small companies that do this sort of thing, often times it's a developer or someone else pulling "double-duty" and acting as well in game. It isn't necessarily something for business to consider; less people means less staff and at times less work to do (from my experience).
When you're talking about something on the magnitude of World of Warcraft, however, you have several additional things to consider. As the amount of money you're referring to grows -- as it would with this particular project -- the question of whether or not it's worth it to put money towards such a program comes into play, or if that money can be put towards other things that will benefit the project in the long run. For the time being we simply have no plans to fund what would be a large and complicated dynamic content program.
We're going to continue to create more scripted world events that should aid in bringing life to the world, but huge, world-changing events probably won't be happening anytime soon.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 4:13:27 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: Yes I understand, but who says the events would have to be huge? These events could be smaller than im sure you're thinking of. I also understand it would have to happen simultaneously do prevent said spoilers etc.
I don't understand what you mean about the server crises if you advertise it? I mean yea, some people would be posting arguements and yelling at you guys, but you're always going to get those people.
And yes if you run these events you're going to get massive people in one area, there is a concern there which im sure can be worked around. Again I appreciate your respect on this issue.
Let's take a few possible scenarios.
You have a dynamic content team. You decide to do a very simple, low-key event, say, one character telling stories in a tavern with a little reward at the end if someone answers your riddle. You need one hundred people on your team to do just that if you're going to do it simultaneously, and that's in North America alone.
Scenario A.) You have one hundred people on your team. You perform it simultaneously without fanfare. After hours of trying to get people to come, you got an average of 15 people in on the event per realm. The vast majority of players don't realize anything happened and the cost of your huge event team is largely a waste.
Scenario B.) You have many fewer actors on your team. You decide to perform it on a staggered schedule. The earlier events are all but deserted, but word of mouth travels and the latter stages of the schedule are packed with people. Unfortunately they all know the answer to the riddle, and the crowd you're gathering from people who want the little reward is causing the entire continent to lag. There are too many people to adequately address, and more players are angered at the event than those that enjoyed it. Management seriously questions the wisdom of allowing this team to exist.
Scenario C.) You have a full team of one hundred and you decide to advertise the simultaneous event ahead of time. You proceed to crash all realms because of the load. The customer complaints are overwhelming. Once again, the team is a poor business decision.
As a player, I love events like this. I love participating in them. I love feeling like I'm part of the world, that I'm involved. But as an industry professional, I understand that the logistics behind such content can be nightmarish in the extreme unless the systems themselves are designed for dynamic content from the ground up and you have proper support for such a program.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 6:50:44 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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I'm still reading, by the way, I've just made most of my points already.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 6:57:26 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: If you're aloud to say what character do you think are most balanced or most unbalanced and who do you prefer to play blue?
This is not on-topic in any way, shape, or form. Do not derail the thread.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 7:26:08 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: As a CM, it is your job to use your knowledge to figure out how to make this happen. You know we want it, you know what it takes to give it to us - make it happen.
If it isn't your job, who's is it?
Instead, you come to this forum with all the answers. You aren't taking our request back to the developers or the actual decision makers. You aren't doing anything with the idea. You're simply shooting it down based on your 'knowledge', which frankly you're asking us to take strictly on faith. It doesn't make for a compelling argument no matter how many times you read post #43...
Your post is 100% assumption.
If you believe I have been silent to the developers on this issue, you are sorely, sorely mistaken. I have been extremely vocal about it. Creative control and design are not in my hands, however; I have given you the reasons I myself was given why this does not work for WoW at this time, augmented with my own years of experience in the field.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 7:40:28 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: Cay i hope you read this very much, as a NWN gamer, as well as a total roleplayer (Geek!)
Why not due this
list up all your 100 Realms in north american
give them random order
do events on them, in that order, going down your s&#&$% list
it can even be an ongoing storyline that THEPLAYERS have to share across realms
this will make players happy
it will include everyone (people will have to be patient)
it will bring the community together, as a whole
it wont require tons of people, the same group will move from, server, to server
i think thats the best idea that will appeal to all and bring the community together
It doesn't work.
Once a few realms have it, the rest of the realms will be looking out for that event in the series. The continent will flood with people and lag out. The actors will be unable to perform the event and no one will get any enjoyment out of it. And this is only if you do the same event across all realms on a staggered schedule. If you do one event on one realm, the next event on another realm, etc... the crowd will get bigger and bigger, until such time as the realm crashes and the storyline is unable to be completed due to the crowd it draws and the problems it causes.
Believe me, I understand this particular area of online gaming very well.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 10:40:41 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: Make use of GMs..have them play as the world leaders and lead armies into battle.
Queue times are already rather long -- you would have us pull GMs off working the queue and responding to legitimate customer problems to lead an invasion force? With all due respect, priorities are needed, and I would rather they work on helping customers out. GMs are not idle when on the clock.
Also -- and again, I speak from experience -- the skills that make a good GM do not necessarily guarantee a good writer/role-player that could perform in front of hundreds of players. Often times they do overlap, but GMs would not necessarily do a good job with what you propose.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 10:46:25 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: One more thing.
I read a couple more of the Blizz responses and all it seems you are giving us is excuses why it can't be done when I personally have seen it done. (Asheron's Call with Asheron and Martine, Ger..something, and Asheron's Lover.)
Script it out. You don't have the NPC's talking to players or the Hero's(Thrall, Jaina, ETC) but you have them playing out a scene. You script it.
Much like some of the Escort quests when you follow and protect
I realize the scope of that game was much smaller but its not impossbile to do with WoW.
The fact that you say you don't have the man power is just absurd, maybe you should hire more people? Part-Time Employees?
I think that the benefit of hiring new employees to do bigger and better things will be worth the while of the company because as I have seen it, lately, more people have been leaving then have been coming.
I have personally seen it done as well, on several occasions and with several different setups. I also know precisely what went into making each instance of such a thing work, and what setbacks they had. I am not pulling excuses out of the air because this is what I think in my fevered mind. Years of experience as both a participant and a creator back me here.
What I am giving you are not "excuses", but rather legitimate concerns and reasons why these events cannot be held in our game at this time. Some of them are technical. Some of them are business-related. And some of them are conscious design choices. None of these are in my hands personally, but I don't want you to think this is the Word of Caydiem, here -- what I'm giving you is what the developers told me when I advocated practically every single angle you folks have pitched.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 10:59:18 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Fun, one-time scripted events? This was explained in the first post. It is a better, more efficient use of developer time to create repeatable content than it is to create one-time, never-seen-again content.
Eventually we might have a team that will do just that. But for our current team, we're focused on bringing more content for everyone to the table.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 11:12:10 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: I understand that there are all these problems and such. I just desperately want to see Sylvanas, Thrall, Jaina, and the other faction leaders we've gotten to know in previous Warcraft games DO something, or be important in some way. It breaks my heart to see Sylvanas wasting away in her chamber in the Undercity. Hell, you don't even really get any meaningful quests from her. The cunning leader of the Forsaken (and my personal favorite WC character) just stands there day after day after day, not doing a damned thing.
I don't know what can be done to fix this, be it cutscenes, having her maybe show up in different locations with different dialogue when the player clicks on her, just do SOMETHING!
Here's a possible scenario that would not require any actors; it could be purely scripted:
At the same time on all servers, Sylvanas walks out of her chambers in the Undercity, a large number of Abominations and deathguards following her for protection. She walks out of the Undercity and onto the zeppelin, taking it to Orgrimmar. In an impressive display of the power of the Forsaken, she walks into the gates of Orgrimmar, still surrounded by elite Forsaken guards. She makes her way to Thrall's chambers, and the two have a heated conversation about the state of the Horde and the direction things need to go in the battle against the Alliance. She then makes her way back to the Undercity. For the Horde, this is an interesting event that maybe advances the storyline. If the Alliance spots that she is out of the Undercity, they can make an attempt at killing her.
This could lead to new quests based on what happened between the two leaders. Missed their meeting? Put a town crier or shadowy informant NPC in the capitals that can inform the player of the shifting political climate.
Now, Cay, why couldn't something like that be done?
1) NPCs cannot zone.
2) Her travelling out of the Undercity -- and her guards (it's easier to grab someone on the move than in the city) -- would make her an easy target for the Alliance to get a great deal of honor points. Unless something very much the equivalent could be done on the other side with the leaders of the Alliance -- which is doubtful, considering the way their transport system is set up -- this would be considered a major PvP imbalance.
3) This whole setup requires more frequent patching, which would disrupt our current process significantly.
4) This takes time away from fixing bugs and creating repeatable content.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 11:22:30 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: We dont need more repeatable content
We need more destruction! More battles! The scourge attacking for no apparent reason!
I dont think the current GM team can handle a new load of resposiblities (as cay said) soooo why not hire another team (with bliz's heaps of cash) and work on it? Seems simple enough.
This has been explained, and is not as simple as you believe.
It's a business consideration. Will the expense incurred from hiring and training an "event team" be worth it? At this time, we have no desire to intentionally cause realm problems (as huge crowds would cause) and it's a matter of how much it would cost vs. how much of our playerbase it would positively impact.
Huge sweeping changes to the world probably aren't coming. As I've said, there might be a team of sorts eventually, but it would be focused on more "scripted" world events like the elemental invasions.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 11:29:16 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: You can lead devilsaurs from Ungoro -> XR...change her flag to a new specific flag...don't say its impossible.
It's not a matter of "flagging" -- NPCs cannot zone. Kalimdor is one zone -- that's Un'Goro to Darnassus if you wanted, in case you're not positive. Eastern Kingdoms is a completely separate server. It's a technical limitation. Now, I'm certain there could be a way to "fake" it, but it would be messy, possibly cause a wealth of problems, and we'd rather do something right if we're going to do it at all.
Q u o t e: Change her points to be dynamic based on the situation. or MAKE HER HARDER make those elites freakin crazy if they wanted to try attacking her.
It would still not be fair, and again, you're asking for something that we cannot currently do easily.
Q u o t e: So 10, 100, 1000 whatever quests is greater than a STORYLINE? Were already complainign that we dislike your fedex quest system and we don't want more of it.
Dungeons are, you bet. Battlegrounds are, definitely. Repeatable content is better than one-time content for an MMO, as there will be people that just picked up the game last week. Developer time spent on an event they missed will mean nothing to them -- but developer time spent on a Battleground? You bet they'll experience that eventually. The quest system comment is your opinion, not the opinion of the masses. I believe the proper pronoun for that is "I".
Q u o t e: Just excuses....and i understand that you can't personally change it caydiem...but you can't keep coming up with excuses for it...your digging yourself ina hole that you personally shouldn't even be in.
Do not lecture me on "excuses". These are not excuses. This is factual information coming from an industry professional that has created both live and scripted events for many massive online games. I am sorry if you cannot accept them as truth, but all I am doing is explaining to you precisely why that idea would not work. If that doesn't sit well with you, I apologize, but I am extremely knowledgeable in this specific field and I am not lying to you in any regard.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 11:41:57 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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I'm not frustrated in the least. This is a subject that many players are passionate about, and I myself am very passionate about it also. I'm just trying to educate folks as to why things are the way they are currently. :)
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 11:43:04 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: I feel like the warcraft vibe is lost.And to make this short and sweet, how hard would it be to have some gm events once in a while.I know there's a lot of servers, but maybe u could just have some random event's here and there to liven things up a bit.
Or make it so that each server npcs, like Thrall or any other major NPC reacts to things like say there capital city being attacked.To me it makes no sense at all that say Ogrim is being sacked and Thrall is siting there doing nothing.And this goes for all capital cities.
The game gets real anti warcraft to me when a capital city gets attacked and theres no defense really from the so called leaders of that city.
All im asking is that u breathe life into the npcs, and not just let them sit there with a thumb up there butt doing nothing.
For your answer, please read through the entire thread. ;)
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/27/2005 12:01:03 AM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) |
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Q u o t e: Let me see if i understand your catagorizing of repeatable content...
would the Onyxia event in stormwind be considered repeatable? What *I* (better? =) ) want and an unknown quantity of others want, are more things like that.
Would that be considered repeatable?
Players can only do it once. It's more repeatable than a one-time event that happens at some point in time and that's it, but less repeatable than a dungeon or battleground.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/27/2005 10:35:38 AM PDT Subject: Re: I disagree!! |
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Many of you are reading too far into my comments. I'll gladly refer back to several of my posts, where I state that in the future there might be a team dedicated to making scripted events like the elemental invasions (we're not idle on this front anyway, and more are coming from our current development staff). We do want to breathe life in the game, but that's not necessarily what some of you want.
Let me review, and you can tell me whether or not I've hit on your particular desires. Players want:
1) A changing world where they can see and interact with said changes. They want the Inn in Westfall to be done. They want the tides of battle to shift. They want things in the world -- small or large -- to grow and change with the times. The reason why most of this is not done is due to, again, remaking assets and content that have already been made, tested, and verified. That's development time that could be spent working on new assets and content for everyone.
2) A changing world where they themselves can enact the changes, make a mark on the world. This is extremely difficult to do because you have thousands of people wanting the exact same thing. "Making a mark on the world" implies one-time content. "I saved X character" works great if they were in danger that one time, but if it happens every hour, well, that's not exciting. See my answers in this thread for reasons why one-time content is not efficient or feasible at this time.
3) A changing world that involves them in the story. Now, this could be achieved via cutscenes or scripted events, but the player primarily wants to be more immersed in the story than is currently available. Of all the choices, this is the one that will possibly be done, but again, there is not much development time dedicated to it at this time. The developers are more focused on creating new repeatable content currently.
I do understand where you're coming from. I'm with you on this issue. I'm just like you in this regard. But just because I sympathize and agree with you does not mean Blizzard will enact such a program. I've brought this issue to the developers several times -- with passion and the logic that many of you are presenting to me (I do understand both sides, even though some believe that to be untrue) -- but the answer I've gotten is the one I've been giving back to you.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/27/2005 10:35:38 AM PDT Subject: Re: I disagree!! *edited post* |
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Many of you are reading too far into my comments. I'll gladly refer back to several of my posts, where I state that in the future there might be a team dedicated to making scripted events like the elemental invasions (we're not idle on this front anyway, and more are coming from our current development staff). We do want to breathe life in the game, but that's not necessarily what some of you want.
Let me review, and you can tell me whether or not I've hit on your particular desires. Players want:
1) A changing world where they can see and interact with said changes. They want the Inn in Westfall to be done. They want the tides of battle to shift. They want things in the world -- small or large -- to grow and change with the times. The reason why most of this is not done is due to, again, remaking assets and content that have already been made, tested, and verified. That's development time that could be spent working on new assets and content for everyone.
2) A changing world where they themselves can enact the changes, make a mark on the world. This is extremely difficult to do because you have thousands of people wanting the exact same thing. "Making a mark on the world" implies one-time content. "I saved X character" works great if they were in danger that one time, but if it happens every hour, well, that's not exciting. See my answers in this thread for reasons why one-time content is not efficient or feasible at this time.
3) A changing world that involves them in the story. Now, this could be achieved via cutscenes or scripted events, but the player primarily wants to be more immersed in the story than is currently available. Of all the choices, this is the one that will possibly be done, but again, there is not much development time dedicated to it at this time. The developers are more focused on creating new repeatable content currently.
I do understand where you're coming from. I'm with you on this issue. I'm just like you in this regard. But just because I sympathize and agree with you does not mean Blizzard will enact such a program. I've brought this issue to the developers several times -- with passion and the logic that many of you are presenting to me (I do understand both sides, even though some believe that to be untrue) -- but the answer I've gotten is the one I've been giving back to you.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/27/2005 10:35:38 AM PDT Subject: Re: I disagree!! *edited post* |
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Many of you are reading too far into my comments. I'll gladly refer back to several of my posts, where I state that in the future there might be a team dedicated to making scripted events like the elemental invasions (we're not idle on this front anyway, and more are coming from our current development staff). We do want to breathe life in the game, but that's not necessarily what some of you want.
Let me review, and you can tell me whether or not I've hit on your particular desires. Players want:
1) A changing world where they can see and interact with said changes. They want the Inn in Westfall to be done. They want the tides of battle to shift. They want things in the world -- small or large -- to grow and change with the times. The reason why most of this is not done is due to, again, remaking assets and content that have already been made, tested, and verified. That's development time that could be spent working on new assets and content for everyone.
2) A changing world where they themselves can enact the changes, make a mark on the world. This is extremely difficult to do because you have thousands of people wanting the exact same thing. "Making a mark on the world" implies one-time content. "I saved X character" works great if they were in danger that one time, but if it happens every hour, well, that's not exciting. See my answers in this thread for reasons why one-time content is not efficient or feasible at this time.
3) A changing world that involves them in the story. Now, this could be achieved via cutscenes or scripted events, but the player primarily wants to be more immersed in the story than is currently available. Of all the choices, this is the one that will possibly be done, but again, there is not much development time dedicated to it at this time. The developers are more focused on creating new repeatable content currently.
I do understand where you're coming from. I'm with you on this issue. I'm just like you in this regard. But just because I sympathize and agree with you does not mean Blizzard will enact such a program. I've brought this issue to the developers several times -- with passion and the logic that many of you are presenting to me (I do understand both sides, even though some believe that to be untrue) -- but the answer I've gotten is the one I've been giving back to you.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 1:32:38 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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As a gamer primarily interested in lore, I am right there with you on your concerns in this regard, but I don't believe you quite grasp the scope of what you ask.
The game must remain accessible to everyone. If Thrall dies permanently, say, that's a lot of content to shift and rewrite (as he's central to many quests), content that's already done and functioning. This then takes away time from the developers that could be used to develop new content.
You want to be involved in the storyline and I completely empathize with you. You want to be the hero. The problem is that you have thousands of other people on the same realm with you that also want to be the hero, and... well, if you make one or two heroes, you leave out a vast majority of the population. Everyone is a paying customer and a part of this world, and they deserve an equal chance at experiencing the game content.
Think of each major NPC -- which would drive the story if we used a more dynamic system -- as the center of a spider web. Pluck them away, and all those strands either go with it or are broken. The game is very intricate, and sweeping changes would severely change the experience of one side, possibly to their detriment. People play a game to have fun. To seriously unbalance the way the game plays -- particularly on PvP realms -- would drastically affect the enjoyment for the players.
I'm aware that cutscenes have been done before in other games, but never with a great deal of grace. Such scenes that some are experiencing but others are not in a persistent online world are difficult to master, as you can't really pull someone out of the world and action like that. I'm not ruling it out, but again, solutions that have been used elsewhere would... not be the best idea on PvP realms. :P
I won't go into the trials of dynamic actors; even scripted events, however, must take into account the vastly different playstyles of our playerbase. For however many people there are like you, folks who wish to see big, story-driven changes occur, there are also others who consider such changes to be a major inconvenience in playing a game with which they are comfortable and knowledgeable. We have to take a great deal into consideration.
The storyline of Azeroth is not lost and I am not saying that there will never be huge changes to the existing gameworld driven by the lore, but I just wanted to explain that there are many things to consider before putting such a plan into motion.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 1:49:55 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: A Blizzard rep thinks this? Really?
Then why does Blizzard ignore all the calls for ways for casual gamers (those who can't devote the single unbroken stretch of time necessary to participate in a raid) to obtain some of the better equipment?
Then why doesn't Blizzard do something to help out the mid-level players who spend more time as a ghost than alive because of all the high level players constantly killing them for sport?
Then why doesn't Blizzard increase the respawn rate of minerals so people other than farmers can get some? (At one point I had 3 quests requiring 40 mithril bars each. It took me over a month to complete that quest, and about half was bought at the auction house as I got the money to buy it because it just wasn't available for mining.)
I could go on...
(Calenn, 49 paladin, sargeras)
They have the chance. Everyone has the opportunity to go on large raids. If their schedule does not permit for that sort of thing, then they may not see certain parts of the high-end game, but they have the ability to get there. No account is closed off from that. We do reward those who have put in more time, and that will probably not change.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 1:58:55 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: It was very disappointing when, after many weeks of work, my guild finally managed to topple Onyxia for the first time on the server, and (save for the 2 hour buff in orgrimmar and the guildmaster's new ring from turning in the head) our kill had absolutely no effect on the world. None of the 39 other players that helped with the kill experienced anything whatsoever besides bidding for loot. We did not, as it were, send shockwaves throughout Azeroth. We could not hear Nefarion's billowing roar of anger from high atop Blackrock Mountain as we felled the broodmother of the black dragonflight.
We simply..killed a mob, got some loot, and went home. A week later Onyxia respawned for us and we killed her again, and have done so every 5~ days for a month. Nobody cares except the lowbies in Orgrimmar receiving an insanely nice buff for our efforts.
So Nefarian bellows... except... hm, wasn't I in Blackrock Spire at that very instant, staring up at him? He didn't seem to be bellowing. Many raid groups would vouch for the same.
Again, I completely understand what you're looking for here, but you have to be exceedingly cautious with such things; with your example, something that is purely lore-based would be broken continuity-wise by those brave adventurers exploring the Spire. And scripting mobs to do what you ask in instances when groups are at varying points in their crawl would be nigh impossible.
I know what you're saying and, as a gamer, I sympathize with the desire to leave one's mark upon the world. But by the same token, you're in a persistent world with thousands of other players. There is no way that the developers could keep up with the content demands of an ever-shifting world, as it takes far more time to make something from concept to completion and test it than it does for players to exhaust that content. That is why much of an MMO's content is repeatable: to get the most mileage out of development costs and time.
Once more, I'm not saying significant marks on the world by players will never happen; I'm just outlining the inherent complications of such an act.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 2:24:12 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: Can Blizzard employees take control of NPC's like the EQ GM's could? Would be fun if out of the blue one day, Thrall organized a raid on an alliance town and led them in battle.
See, I wasn't going to get into this, but you had to bring it up... ;)
Dynamic actors would be impossible to manage in a game of this magnitude, at least with our systems and situation.
Consider that we do not use volunteer programs due to legal concerns (and the management issues that can arise are also a serious contributing factor). Therefore, any actors we used would have to be employed by the company.
Next, understand that we would certainly not take away from customer support to do such a thing, as every GM is needed to handle the legitimate customer concerns over the course of the day. As such, no one could really do "double-duty". Everyone's busy enough doing their own jobs. They'd probably have to be dedicated actors.
And THEN consider that said actors would have to be quick and accurate typists, with a near-encyclopedic knowledge of the game's lore in order to respond to players in real-time as accurately as they could. They'd need to be decent communicators and writers, role-players who can speak in character without deliberation. That's a pretty tall order, because it's not something that can be easily quantified without seeing someone in action doing that very thing. I'll get into the business side of it later...
So now assume you've gotten leave to get a team of dedicated dynamic actors. You need to cover nearly one hundred realms with these people. For small appearances, it wouldn't be much of a big deal, but for major events it's imperative that they happen simultaneously to prevent spoilers and potential overcrowding problems. That may need to happen at the same time internationally, which is a potential nightmare. That means you need a lot of people.
There's the business side of it, too. If you keep these events small, no one knows they happen until after the fact, and it affects a very small portion of the playerbase. Advertise them and make them a big event and you have a potential server crisis on your hands, as thousands of players in one place can cause severe issues. The question becomes whether or not it's worth it to keep such a crew active, and normally the answer is no.
I love doing that sort of thing personally, but at this time it's simply not feasible.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 2:54:29 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: If ever they add Hyjal or something, have a pass that goes there. In order to get into the zone, you need to clear the pass, which will have various bosses along the way, getting progressively harder and harder. Once you kill the final boss, the zone is opened for all to enjoy.
While not for Hyjal, I can say that the developers agree this line of thinking is a good idea for certain content... you may see something like it in the future. :)
As for the subject as a whole, this is something very near and dear to my heart as a role-player and writer. I have a great deal of experience in this particular field, and as such I'll talk your ear off all day about it if you get me started. I positively adore the idea of having a more dynamic storyline, but at the same time I'm well-acquainted with the restrictions and considerations of such a program and know how our particular situation happens to be internally. I do not believe you'll see broad, sweeping changes to the game in the name of lore for some time, if at all.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:02:48 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: I totally agree with the original poster. Here is where the endgame should come into play. Because there are no world events, this is how people get to 60 and get burned fast. Instances are cool and all but we all know they lose thier luster fast right about the time you've either lost rolling on much needed upgrades or flat out dont ever see an upgrade you need drop.
Perhaps if the ideas expressed here could be included in the endgame maybe WoW will get some bite back. Perhaps legendary instanced quests where you zone into an instance and either fight with or against a Hero from WoW lore.
Me, I had hoped at some point for WoW we would get world events. I know its not just me but Blizzard said they would definately do this. Only thing close I have seen to something like this was the last nites of open beta. After seeing that I thought for sure, it would be a normal occurrance in WoW. I sure hope we see something like this, would be nice thats for sure
Maul
The End-of-Beta event was largely my own work (I'm evil), and we only had a couple realms to cover. With nearly one hundred realms and paying customers, there's a lot more to take in and consider now.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:05:40 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: Nothing has made me want to quit more than this sentence.
[/quote]
I believe she means: "don't expect the silithid to overrun and destroy Gadget any time soon."
Not: "Don't expect us to ever have any story driven events that lead players to Northrend or unlock zones for the server."
Don't stress too hard, Blizz has been vocal on this topic since beta.
You're correct -- thanks for the clarification. :)
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:12:55 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: Cay.. as others have already mentioned..
Did Blizzard not look at FFXI at all???
My remarks will seem hostile.. but this is only because of the incredible degree of dissapointing Im feeling about Wow in this regard. Really it's to the point where I'm sad of seeing such a waste considering the incredible potential this game had.
What about instanced cutscenes and stories?? this is exactly how FFXI worked, and since WoW supposedly made such extensive use of instancing.. I figured it was logical... oh well...
Cutscenes.. omg PLEASE cutscenes... Blizzard is literally among the top 3 prerendered CG cutscene producers in the game industry in my opinion... You guys are artists.. yet WoW... nothing...
Honestly.. I already hit 60.. and really enjoy this game.. but.. to b honest.. FFXI is calling me back.. and certainly not so I can go run dungeons over.. and OVER for some random item.. I honestly couldnt care less about an item.. I wanna experience something.. and WoW.. honestly.. is a far less intriguing experience than I was expecting...
Cay.. Im srry but what you describe tells me you guys set the bar WAY WAAAYYY low when making this game.. no ambitions of creating something new whatsoever..
As a friendly reminder, I cannot directly discuss other games, and if this becomes a comparison thread it will be locked. Keep it on topic, please. :)
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:15:04 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: I think, Cay, what most people here want are more ingame GM driven events. :/ I know alot of other MMO's have had them, and they differ on every server.
Are we ever going to see something like this?
Please see Post #43.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:17:13 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: FF XI handled in-game cutscenes very, very well. "With grace", so to speak.
I cannot argue the point due to the fact that I can't directly speak about other games (and again, this is not a comparison thread)... but let me state that I'm well aware what games have used cutscenes, I have experienced them personally, and I took them into consideration when writing that post. There are many things to address when creating in-game cutscenes that take you out of the action in a persistent world.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:29:02 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: Yeaaaaaa.....
Then explain to me how the burning legion attacked some of the capitals during beta?
Even things such as this,which don't REALLY have any impact on the world would be good...
pwned?
Not "pwned", my friend, because I was the one behind that event and I'll gladly explain how we did it.
First, the number of realms we had to cover can be counted on one hand without making use of all my fingers.
Second, as it was the end of Open Beta and no one was yet paying for the service, the GMs had the ability to aid with the setup and execution of the event, which still took considerable time and manpower.
Third, as no one was paying for the service, no one was complaining about durability loss or gameplay disruption because, hey, it was the end of beta.
Now that we have nearly one hundred realms in North America alone, not to mention the huge international numbers as well, the scope of such an event has changed somewhat. The impact would be different as well, and while many people enjoyed it, part of that enjoyment came from the fact that it didn't really matter what happened to your character. If a huge Infernal squatted on the Orgrimmar auction house for a day, I think more people would be upset than pleased.
I suggest in the future you attempt to "pwn" someone with less knowledge. :)
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:29:52 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: In my opinion, on earlier posts, Blizzard should hire volenteers to organize raids on each server. These "volenteers" would control Thrall or Jaina, etc. Im sure you can find "experianced, and skilled" players who would do this for you. Though, of course, Blizzard would have to lay down rules and make people sign contracts and stuff like that, so it's probably more trouble than it's worth.
See post 43 on why volunteers are not used.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:31:31 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: No offense Cay, but Guild Wars did it. You both offer excellent games I and own both, but GW offers you the ability to make your mark and see the effect within a persistent world. I understand it's different than WoW, but meld the technologies a bit.
Just a suggestion.
This is not a comparison thread -- but I would suggest if you ever do compare games to do so in the same genre. World of Warcraft is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:32:11 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: Cay I dont think they would be too mad if there was no durability loss during such an "event" ya think?
That requires significant development time to implement and use properly. It's not just a switch. :P
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:36:13 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: Well, of course I understand that they would have to be qualified. You can't have "random" people doing this for you. That's why there should be a "interview". People who are like you; who understand the game, are good writes, and has more than basic knowledge. I know this would never happen any time soon if at all, but I still think that it would add to the game.
(You guys have more important things to be doing anyway, sry for my inability to see things through)
Actually, if you read the entirety of post 43, you would see I stated that volunteers cannot be used for legal and managerial reasons.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:41:45 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: Here's a suggestion to make the task more managable.
Have "GM Events" based on gamer accomplished events. EG: The first time Blackwing is ever killed, the evening 2 days following, GMs host an event to celebrate this, or perhaps move forth the story.
This would vastly lower than number of "Events" the GMs need to host because instead of having to replicate the event at the exact same time across 100 servers, they would only need to do it 1 time for each server, and for the most part, on different days.
Not only would this be a far more realistic and manageable outlet for GMs to host Events, but it would also make the "first to kill X mob" feel extra special and leave their "mark on the world" by being the ones who triggered this event. And at the same time, everyone on the server can still join in. So everybody wins.
If two realms do it at the same time (or overlapping)? Three? Five? Is it fair that one group gets their "party" right away and others are delayed due to lack of personnel? Is it fair to everyone waiting in queue that the GMs are instead partying with a high-level guild? Even a few GMs away increases the time it takes to get support. And this is a very real and possible occurrence -- every major guild will be striving to be first on something, and that can lead to the problem described above.
I understand where you're coming from, but the support of such a thing across as many realms as we have is still too difficult to manage, and we do not want to sacrifice customer support for such events.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 3:43:16 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: Yea...sorry, I swear I read that post many times before writing what I did. Your right. Could'nt you hire people with min. wage or something, or is there just something im not seeing about this?
(sry to waste your time answering my posts, I do thank you for answering mine and just in general about the origanal topic about storylines)
Again, then see the business end of it in post 43. :P I covered all the bases; I know this part of the industry very well.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 4:02:12 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: I have heard you talk alot about the number of servers and the difficulty that brings with it in introducing events. However, I'm not sure the paying customers have much sympathy. You have many servers because you have many paying customers. Therefore, you have more money to invest in making them happy.
If you only had 20 thousand customers and two servers, would it be different? I doubt it, you'd be underwater, and the game would be finished.
Basically, the success of your game should not be used as an argument for not being able to introduce dynamic content. You have to figure out how to make it work, don't you?
In small companies that do this sort of thing, often times it's a developer or someone else pulling "double-duty" and acting as well in game. It isn't necessarily something for business to consider; less people means less staff and at times less work to do (from my experience).
When you're talking about something on the magnitude of World of Warcraft, however, you have several additional things to consider. As the amount of money you're referring to grows -- as it would with this particular project -- the question of whether or not it's worth it to put money towards such a program comes into play, or if that money can be put towards other things that will benefit the project in the long run. For the time being we simply have no plans to fund what would be a large and complicated dynamic content program.
We're going to continue to create more scripted world events that should aid in bringing life to the world, but huge, world-changing events probably won't be happening anytime soon.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 4:13:27 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: Yes I understand, but who says the events would have to be huge? These events could be smaller than im sure you're thinking of. I also understand it would have to happen simultaneously do prevent said spoilers etc.
I don't understand what you mean about the server crises if you advertise it? I mean yea, some people would be posting arguements and yelling at you guys, but you're always going to get those people.
And yes if you run these events you're going to get massive people in one area, there is a concern there which im sure can be worked around. Again I appreciate your respect on this issue.
Let's take a few possible scenarios.
You have a dynamic content team. You decide to do a very simple, low-key event, say, one character telling stories in a tavern with a little reward at the end if someone answers your riddle. You need one hundred people on your team to do just that if you're going to do it simultaneously, and that's in North America alone.
Scenario A.) You have one hundred people on your team. You perform it simultaneously without fanfare. After hours of trying to get people to come, you got an average of 15 people in on the event per realm. The vast majority of players don't realize anything happened and the cost of your huge event team is largely a waste.
Scenario B.) You have many fewer actors on your team. You decide to perform it on a staggered schedule. The earlier events are all but deserted, but word of mouth travels and the latter stages of the schedule are packed with people. Unfortunately they all know the answer to the riddle, and the crowd you're gathering from people who want the little reward is causing the entire continent to lag. There are too many people to adequately address, and more players are angered at the event than those that enjoyed it. Management seriously questions the wisdom of allowing this team to exist.
Scenario C.) You have a full team of one hundred and you decide to advertise the simultaneous event ahead of time. You proceed to crash all realms because of the load. The customer complaints are overwhelming. Once again, the team is a poor business decision.
As a player, I love events like this. I love participating in them. I love feeling like I'm part of the world, that I'm involved. But as an industry professional, I understand that the logistics behind such content can be nightmarish in the extreme unless the systems themselves are designed for dynamic content from the ground up and you have proper support for such a program.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 6:50:44 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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I'm still reading, by the way, I've just made most of my points already.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 6:57:26 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: If you're aloud to say what character do you think are most balanced or most unbalanced and who do you prefer to play blue?
This is not on-topic in any way, shape, or form. Do not derail the thread.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 7:26:08 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: As a CM, it is your job to use your knowledge to figure out how to make this happen. You know we want it, you know what it takes to give it to us - make it happen.
If it isn't your job, who's is it?
Instead, you come to this forum with all the answers. You aren't taking our request back to the developers or the actual decision makers. You aren't doing anything with the idea. You're simply shooting it down based on your 'knowledge', which frankly you're asking us to take strictly on faith. It doesn't make for a compelling argument no matter how many times you read post #43...
Your post is 100% assumption.
If you believe I have been silent to the developers on this issue, you are sorely, sorely mistaken. I have been extremely vocal about it. Creative control and design are not in my hands, however; I have given you the reasons I myself was given why this does not work for WoW at this time, augmented with my own years of experience in the field.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 7:40:28 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: Cay i hope you read this very much, as a NWN gamer, as well as a total roleplayer (Geek!)
Why not due this
list up all your 100 Realms in north american
give them random order
do events on them, in that order, going down your s&#&$% list
it can even be an ongoing storyline that THEPLAYERS have to share across realms
this will make players happy
it will include everyone (people will have to be patient)
it will bring the community together, as a whole
it wont require tons of people, the same group will move from, server, to server
i think thats the best idea that will appeal to all and bring the community together
It doesn't work.
Once a few realms have it, the rest of the realms will be looking out for that event in the series. The continent will flood with people and lag out. The actors will be unable to perform the event and no one will get any enjoyment out of it. And this is only if you do the same event across all realms on a staggered schedule. If you do one event on one realm, the next event on another realm, etc... the crowd will get bigger and bigger, until such time as the realm crashes and the storyline is unable to be completed due to the crowd it draws and the problems it causes.
Believe me, I understand this particular area of online gaming very well.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 10:40:41 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: Make use of GMs..have them play as the world leaders and lead armies into battle.
Queue times are already rather long -- you would have us pull GMs off working the queue and responding to legitimate customer problems to lead an invasion force? With all due respect, priorities are needed, and I would rather they work on helping customers out. GMs are not idle when on the clock.
Also -- and again, I speak from experience -- the skills that make a good GM do not necessarily guarantee a good writer/role-player that could perform in front of hundreds of players. Often times they do overlap, but GMs would not necessarily do a good job with what you propose.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 10:46:25 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: One more thing.
I read a couple more of the Blizz responses and all it seems you are giving us is excuses why it can't be done when I personally have seen it done. (Asheron's Call with Asheron and Martine, Ger..something, and Asheron's Lover.)
Script it out. You don't have the NPC's talking to players or the Hero's(Thrall, Jaina, ETC) but you have them playing out a scene. You script it.
Much like some of the Escort quests when you follow and protect
I realize the scope of that game was much smaller but its not impossbile to do with WoW.
The fact that you say you don't have the man power is just absurd, maybe you should hire more people? Part-Time Employees?
I think that the benefit of hiring new employees to do bigger and better things will be worth the while of the company because as I have seen it, lately, more people have been leaving then have been coming.
I have personally seen it done as well, on several occasions and with several different setups. I also know precisely what went into making each instance of such a thing work, and what setbacks they had. I am not pulling excuses out of the air because this is what I think in my fevered mind. Years of experience as both a participant and a creator back me here.
What I am giving you are not "excuses", but rather legitimate concerns and reasons why these events cannot be held in our game at this time. Some of them are technical. Some of them are business-related. And some of them are conscious design choices. None of these are in my hands personally, but I don't want you to think this is the Word of Caydiem, here -- what I'm giving you is what the developers told me when I advocated practically every single angle you folks have pitched.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 10:59:18 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Fun, one-time scripted events? This was explained in the first post. It is a better, more efficient use of developer time to create repeatable content than it is to create one-time, never-seen-again content.
Eventually we might have a team that will do just that. But for our current team, we're focused on bringing more content for everyone to the table.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 11:12:10 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: I understand that there are all these problems and such. I just desperately want to see Sylvanas, Thrall, Jaina, and the other faction leaders we've gotten to know in previous Warcraft games DO something, or be important in some way. It breaks my heart to see Sylvanas wasting away in her chamber in the Undercity. Hell, you don't even really get any meaningful quests from her. The cunning leader of the Forsaken (and my personal favorite WC character) just stands there day after day after day, not doing a damned thing.
I don't know what can be done to fix this, be it cutscenes, having her maybe show up in different locations with different dialogue when the player clicks on her, just do SOMETHING!
Here's a possible scenario that would not require any actors; it could be purely scripted:
At the same time on all servers, Sylvanas walks out of her chambers in the Undercity, a large number of Abominations and deathguards following her for protection. She walks out of the Undercity and onto the zeppelin, taking it to Orgrimmar. In an impressive display of the power of the Forsaken, she walks into the gates of Orgrimmar, still surrounded by elite Forsaken guards. She makes her way to Thrall's chambers, and the two have a heated conversation about the state of the Horde and the direction things need to go in the battle against the Alliance. She then makes her way back to the Undercity. For the Horde, this is an interesting event that maybe advances the storyline. If the Alliance spots that she is out of the Undercity, they can make an attempt at killing her.
This could lead to new quests based on what happened between the two leaders. Missed their meeting? Put a town crier or shadowy informant NPC in the capitals that can inform the player of the shifting political climate.
Now, Cay, why couldn't something like that be done?
1) NPCs cannot zone.
2) Her travelling out of the Undercity -- and her guards (it's easier to grab someone on the move than in the city) -- would make her an easy target for the Alliance to get a great deal of honor points. Unless something very much the equivalent could be done on the other side with the leaders of the Alliance -- which is doubtful, considering the way their transport system is set up -- this would be considered a major PvP imbalance.
3) This whole setup requires more frequent patching, which would disrupt our current process significantly.
4) This takes time away from fixing bugs and creating repeatable content.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 11:22:30 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: We dont need more repeatable content
We need more destruction! More battles! The scourge attacking for no apparent reason!
I dont think the current GM team can handle a new load of resposiblities (as cay said) soooo why not hire another team (with bliz's heaps of cash) and work on it? Seems simple enough.
This has been explained, and is not as simple as you believe.
It's a business consideration. Will the expense incurred from hiring and training an "event team" be worth it? At this time, we have no desire to intentionally cause realm problems (as huge crowds would cause) and it's a matter of how much it would cost vs. how much of our playerbase it would positively impact.
Huge sweeping changes to the world probably aren't coming. As I've said, there might be a team of sorts eventually, but it would be focused on more "scripted" world events like the elemental invasions.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 11:29:16 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: You can lead devilsaurs from Ungoro -> XR...change her flag to a new specific flag...don't say its impossible.
It's not a matter of "flagging" -- NPCs cannot zone. Kalimdor is one zone -- that's Un'Goro to Darnassus if you wanted, in case you're not positive. Eastern Kingdoms is a completely separate server. It's a technical limitation. Now, I'm certain there could be a way to "fake" it, but it would be messy, possibly cause a wealth of problems, and we'd rather do something right if we're going to do it at all.
Q u o t e: Change her points to be dynamic based on the situation. or MAKE HER HARDER make those elites freakin crazy if they wanted to try attacking her.
It would still not be fair, and again, you're asking for something that we cannot currently do easily.
Q u o t e: So 10, 100, 1000 whatever quests is greater than a STORYLINE? Were already complainign that we dislike your fedex quest system and we don't want more of it.
Dungeons are, you bet. Battlegrounds are, definitely. Repeatable content is better than one-time content for an MMO, as there will be people that just picked up the game last week. Developer time spent on an event they missed will mean nothing to them -- but developer time spent on a Battleground? You bet they'll experience that eventually. The quest system comment is your opinion, not the opinion of the masses. I believe the proper pronoun for that is "I".
Q u o t e: Just excuses....and i understand that you can't personally change it caydiem...but you can't keep coming up with excuses for it...your digging yourself ina hole that you personally shouldn't even be in.
Do not lecture me on "excuses". These are not excuses. This is factual information coming from an industry professional that has created both live and scripted events for many massive online games. I am sorry if you cannot accept them as truth, but all I am doing is explaining to you precisely why that idea would not work. If that doesn't sit well with you, I apologize, but I am extremely knowledgeable in this specific field and I am not lying to you in any regard.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 11:41:57 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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I'm not frustrated in the least. This is a subject that many players are passionate about, and I myself am very passionate about it also. I'm just trying to educate folks as to why things are the way they are currently. :)
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/26/2005 11:43:04 PM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: I feel like the warcraft vibe is lost.And to make this short and sweet, how hard would it be to have some gm events once in a while.I know there's a lot of servers, but maybe u could just have some random event's here and there to liven things up a bit.
Or make it so that each server npcs, like Thrall or any other major NPC reacts to things like say there capital city being attacked.To me it makes no sense at all that say Ogrim is being sacked and Thrall is siting there doing nothing.And this goes for all capital cities.
The game gets real anti warcraft to me when a capital city gets attacked and theres no defense really from the so called leaders of that city.
All im asking is that u breathe life into the npcs, and not just let them sit there with a thumb up there butt doing nothing.
For your answer, please read through the entire thread. ;)
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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Poster: Caydiem at 5/27/2005 12:01:03 AM PDT Subject: Re: What Happened Blizz? (Blue) *edited post* |
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Q u o t e: Let me see if i understand your catagorizing of repeatable content...
would the Onyxia event in stormwind be considered repeatable? What *I* (better? =) ) want and an unknown quantity of others want, are more things like that.
Would that be considered repeatable?
Players can only do it once. It's more repeatable than a one-time event that happens at some point in time and that's it, but less repeatable than a dungeon or battleground.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=3293379&p=#post3300423 |
Poster: Caydiem at 5/27/2005 10:35:38 AM PDT Subject: Re: I disagree!! *edited post* |
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Many of you are reading too far into my comments. I'll gladly refer back to several of my posts, where I state that in the future there might be a team dedicated to making scripted events like the elemental invasions (we're not idle on this front anyway, and more are coming from our current development staff). We do want to breathe life in the game, but that's not necessarily what some of you want.
Let me review, and you can tell me whether or not I've hit on your particular desires. Players want:
1) A changing world where they can see and interact with said changes. They want the Inn in Westfall to be done. They want the tides of battle to shift. They want things in the world -- small or large -- to grow and change with the times. The reason why most of this is not done is due to, again, remaking assets and content that have already been made, tested, and verified. That's development time that could be spent working on new assets and content for everyone.
2) A changing world where they themselves can enact the changes, make a mark on the world. This is extremely difficult to do because you have thousands of people wanting the exact same thing. "Making a mark on the world" implies one-time content. "I saved X character" works great if they were in danger that one time, but if it happens every hour, well, that's not exciting. See my answers in this thread for reasons why one-time content is not efficient or feasible at this time.
3) A changing world that involves them in the story. Now, this could be achieved via cutscenes or scripted events, but the player primarily wants to be more immersed in the story than is currently available. Of all the choices, this is the one that will possibly be done, but again, there is not much development time dedicated to it at this time. The developers are more focused on creating new repeatable content currently.
I do understand where you're coming from. I'm with you on this issue. I'm just like you in this regard. But just because I sympathize and agree with you does not mean Blizzard will enact such a program. I've brought this issue to the developers several times -- with passion and the logic that many of you are presenting to me (I do understand both sides, even though some believe that to be untrue) -- but the answer I've gotten is the one I've been giving back to you.
- Caydiem - Assistant Community Manager
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