Poster: Caydiem at 8/24/2005 4:21:13 PM PDT
Subject: Class Representation: the Myth and the Truth |
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There has been a lot of confusion and many misconceptions flying about what I do and what, therefore, I have failed to do.
Let me clear a few things up off the bat:
- I am not the Druid class representative. We do not have a class representative system of any kind.
- I am not obligated to post when I have nothing to give.
- I do communicate the Druid concerns to the developers as do all members of the Community Team, but that does not mean they will be fixed right away.
There is no Druid class representative, nor any sort of class representative system at all. All of us watch all classes. Now, the reason why I post here often is that, of all the community team members, I have a good deal of experience with the class and can use that experience to relate. I have a level 60 Druid and have played on live realms with both Feral Combat and Restoration Builds. I have also tested Balance builds on test and internal realms a good deal. (If you're looking for "proof" that I play a level 60 Druid, I don't know what to tell you. I don't post my character's name and realm for good reason; I play anonymously. He isn't named Caydiem. I can tell you that I have had absolutely abysmal luck with my Wildheart drops, though. If I see Scholomance one more time, I swear...) I know the class well and can sympathize with your concerns as a player myself.
Now, I've had fantastic conversations with you folks. But there is a time and a place for everything, and if I have nothing to give, I'm not about to strike up a discussion about the druid experience when the forums are full of angry and frustrated individuals. At that point, you're looking for information, and I don't have anything to give. Since I can't post "slice-of-life" type posts without a huge backlash, and I can't give you information that I don't have... I don't post.
You folks have taken me to task for the comment by Eyonix "exposing" that talent issue, but I explained this before. I knew you were going to be disappointed and I wanted to temper it with good news as well (the cat form buffs), which is why I was sitting on it very briefly. Unfortunately the cat was let out of the bag early and there was fallout. Blame me if you like; tempering bad news with good is a simple and logical thing to do in a position like mine and I wanted to give you the full perspective of 1.7 and 1.8.
As for the talent disappointment -- yes, I understand your disgruntled response to a lack of talent changes in 1.7, but I invite you to look at the Hunter changes to see how extensive they are and how much work went into them. That there is a lot of development time, and it took up the majority of the scheduled time for the class designers as far as 1.7 goes. They wanted to make sure they did it right, and they did. They also want to make sure they do the Druid talent changes properly, and that also takes time. Delaying the patch for that, however, is out of the question, so the Druid changes are one of the highest priorities for that team in 1.8. Schedules shift as unexpected issues arise. Things change. I have endeavored to keep you abreast of such things, but if you choose to react in a destructive and negative manner, advance notice of such changes may stem off to prevent such reactions.
The Ferocious Bite fix is another such issue where problems arose, the fix required more time to be implemented successfully, and it was pushed back. I'm sorry if this disappointed many of you, but these things can occur. We don't want to delay such things. We don't keep bugs in the game intentionally. We genuinely want to fix them, but we also want to do it right -- and that sometimes requires more time than was initially projected.
I am sorry if you feel I am not doing my job as Assistant Community Manager and invite you to eMail my supervisor at wowcmfeedback@blizzard.com if you wish to give feedback of any kind on my performance. If your anger or disappointment is directed at my lack of performing the Class Representative job, however, I must remind you that it is not, in fact, my job. I love my Druid and eagerly await the upcoming changes just as you do; I'm a Druid player, and I understand your position, but I am not an official class advocate.
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post380654 | | | Poster: Caydiem at 8/24/2005 4:37:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr |
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Q u o t e:
That's alright Cay, you can go now.
I personally thank you for your efforts, but I think the class would be better off if you didn't come back with any further news or developments. Just do your job in the background, because when you step into the limelight, someone behind the curtains trips you.
"The class would be better off"? I would like you to elaborate on this, if you don't mind.
The majority of the Druids who post on these forums are reasonable folks, and it's one of the reasons I love this forum and this class. There are exceptions, and even the most mature of community participants can show their displeasure if something isn't going their way. But I ask you honestly -- what would you rather see? A tidbit of upcoming information that is subject to change that gives you some idea of the class's direction, or complete and utter silence until the patch notes are released?
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post380707 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/24/2005 4:44:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr |
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Q u o t e:
I don't see any reason not to have class reps, why doesn't Blizzard hire them? Or at least pick volunteers?
Volunteers are a whole can of worms that I'd rather not open, but to state it briefly, there are some legal concerns surrounding any such system.
More than that, though, a single mind advocating class concerns can lead to a great deal of bias and leaning towards a particular build. I'm not the only one that communicates Druid feedback, and it's all derived from your posts, players with a variety of builds and perspectives. This presents a more complete picture of the class than any one class advocate could present over the long run.
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post380723 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/24/2005 6:19:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr |
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About the Wildheart thing...
Yes, I'm still at that point. I have a level 60 Druid but it's not the only character I play. I'd love to be doing Molten Core and do plan on doing it with my Druid in time, but my situation is somewhat awkward. I was in a small guild, and that small guild more or less dissolved. There are raid-worthy guilds on my realm, and I do have decent relations with a few members, but I don't have the time currently to work my way into the hearts of a pick-up MC raid.
I'll get there, but the road is long and, as I've told the Hunter community, I am giving them a fair shake and levelling up my Hunter also. :)
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post380960 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/24/2005 6:31:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr |
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Q u o t e:
So how about a read on what you're wearing on the druid now?
A lot of Dire Maul gear -- Bracers of Prosperity, Unyielding Maul and such. I lost out on the Boots of the Shrieker to a Shaman (?!) in Scholomance but did manage to land Death's Clutch and the Ghoul Skin Leggings. I have the Hammer of the Grand Crusader for my healing exploits. I've been gathering a good bit of Feral gear (Shadowcraft Gloves are going to be my new best friend after the patch), as well as +healing gear to play around with. As there were very few rogues in my guild, I have a decent amount of leather goods sitting in the bank. ;)
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post380981 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 11:47:55 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr |
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A few clarifications:
The speculation that the fishing contest was done instead of Druid fixes is completely incorrect. There are various teams amongst the developers, and the class team did not work on a world event.
I pass along what the developers tell me (yes, they told me the Ferocious Bite fix is scheduled for 1.8, regardless of what you believe -- not all bugs can be hotfixed) and pass your feedback to them. However, there are a few misconceptions surrounding this process. Namely:
- If a bug is reported, it can and should be fixed as soon as possible in a hotfix;
- If a change is asked for by many, it should be implemented, and failure to do so is a failure of Blizzard's;
- Changes announced and then pushed back mean that the developers care little for the class and/or the class is viewed as low priority.
I know most of you don't think this way, and those that do have these misconceptions might not have all of them. Still, I would like to clarify the development process somewhat here.
- Bugs cannot be fixed with the snap of the fingers (in all but the rarest cases). Once it is known, the cause must be determined, which can take a bit depending on the case. Once that is determined, the process of fixing it -- while maintaining the integrity of all else, an important part of fixing bugs in a complex piece of work like an MMO -- begins. Internal tests are performed to ensure that the fix is valid and other parts of the game that may have been affected are functioning. If the fix passes that, its priority is weighed. Some fixes can be made with a hotfix; others cannot. In the case of Ferocious Bite, the decision was reached that it was not a gamebreaking problem for the Druid and could wait til a patch, but the fix made failed somewhere along that path I mentioned, so more work is required.
- Design changes and additions are created and implemented based on the overall balance of the game. Suggestions and insights from the playerbase are fantastic and they are passed along, but game design is not a democracy and there will be times -- probably fairly often -- when something is suggested that is not put into the game. We are not obligated to make changes to the game based on your own perception of how it should work.
- Scheduling of features and changes is based on a variety of factors, largely internal. We do operate on an internal schedule. In an ideal world, things would:
- Be designed instantly and perfectly balanced with the rest of the game on the first go;
- Be implemented quicker than you can blink in a flawless fashion;
- Pass the tests with flying colors;
- Get implemented into the game immediately after everything was set.
That, sadly, is not how the real world functions. Setbacks occur. Higher priority items -- critical issues -- pop up. (I am aware that some issues with the Druid class may seem critical to you, but in comparison to the issues I'm alluding to, they're pretty small potatoes.) As the deadline draws closer, hard decisions must be made as far as what goes into a patch and what stays behind. What stays normally consists of both a) bugs/features that have not yet had all major issues resolved with them; and b) changes that require major work. Many of the Druid changes you were told about factored into one of these two categories, and so they were held back, but that does not mean you rate any less as far as priority goes. Sometimes it's a simple time issue.
In closing, while I understand your frustrations regarding the setbacks, I ask that you look at the bigger picture and have patience. Changes are coming, and the developers are listening (even if they choose not to do what you ask of them).
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384306 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 12:17:07 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr |
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Q u o t e:
Wait.
Let me get this straight. There's a team of developers devoted to working on the classes. As in, they don't focus on this class or that class, but work on concerns regarding the CLASSES in the game?
Okay, given this division of labour, did this team have a higher priority rather than fixing the druid bugs for this patch ASIDE from the hunters' retooling?
What were the critical items that, in regards to THIS team, pushed them back?
Wait, I know, you can't say. No need to answer that.
As you describe it we're small potatoes in the priority list of the devs. There's some honesty in that, at least. However, considering the understandably limited view of what you call "the big picture", you CANNOT ask us to be patient. These are our concerns. We are not aware of servers suddenly catching fire because of class code. We are not aware of a spell or ability that suddenly renders the character either a god (oops, shaman) or destroys all their equipment and downs the server in the proccess. So, we should and will continue to raise all holy hell in our own private corner. After all, squeaky wheels, eh?
And if the team finished their work and it was a all-inclusive priority list that pushed druid concerns back, then we can say that it WAS the fishing contest that IS getting into this next patch. Why? Because all the other non-critical items that are coming in with it were not sacrificed for the sake of the druid changes. This is assuming, of course, that all teams share one priority list.
Again, let me be emphatic, given the limited perspective that Blizzard (through you) is willing (which is their prerogative) to give us, how can you ask us to be patient?
No, it was NOT the Fishing Contest, for the last time. The teams do not share one priority list as they are all responsible for their own section of the game.
(EDIT for Hoofinit: Ever hear the term "Too many cooks?" The people working on the Fishing Contest may not be familiar at all with the inner workings of the classes or the reason why the bug fix wasn't working properly. Many unsure fingers plucking at a large, complex knot will take longer than a few precise, knowledgeable hands.)
The Class Team, in this case, was busy retooling the Hunter changes. I'm not sure if you followed what was occurring, but due to the magnitude of the changes coming for the Hunters, they required a great deal of testing and modifications to the original talent plan. They decided to polish and properly balance the Hunter changes instead of releasing an unbalanced, potentially game-breaking version of their changes and more Druid changes (which would probably be in an even worse unfinished state).
Since your assumption was based on a singular priority list (which is incorrect), much of what you said doesn't really apply, but I'll attempt to address the other points.
Druid changes are "small potatoes" to the class team when, say, a large, critical bug shows up in internal tests relating to one class-related change that causes a server crash. I know you're "not aware" of much of this, which is why I am endeavoring to make you aware that these things can and do happen during the course of development. I'm not informing you of specific cases; I'm explaining the general setbacks that can and do occur over the course of developing a game patch, which should hopefully help to temper the questions of "Why isn't it here now?" with some understanding of the pitfalls of the process.
How can I ask for your patience? It's simple.
I know very well that players -- by their nature -- will be very centrally focused on their class of choice, with all its weaknesses and problems. That isn't a bad thing; it's how the mind tends to work, and it provides a plethora of perspectives that I can use as feedback. So by that token, I know that asking for patience when one is so focused on one aspect of the game can be frustrating.
That's why I'm not only asking for patience, but explaining why patience is needed. I'm giving you a look into the facts and foibles of the development cycle, explaining why I'm counseling patience. And, at the heart of it, I don't have anything to give you but requests for patience. I can't make the patch come any faster or the bugs fix themselves, nor can you; patience is the virtue left to us all. ;)[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384370 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 12:26:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr |
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Q u o t e:
So you're saying "Use Rip instead", and that's that?
No, thank you, I rather get what I paid for rather than something ALMOST as good. That's like drinking milk just a little past it's prime. Bearable, but still not good enough.
Kaegan, I'll put it to you plainly -- the Ferocious Bite fix must be fixed in a patch, and it is not critical enough for an emergency patch to be made solely for its repair. As it cannot be fixed in 1.7, it's scheduled for 1.8 at this time, and that is simply the current state of affairs. The developers know how you feel, but that knowledge does not necessarily change the direction of what is occurring.
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384391 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 1:18:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr |
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Q u o t e:
The bottom line is that rogues had a VERY similar bug and it was hotfixed but what druids are told = next major patch (1.8)
If eviscerate can be hotfixed then so can ferocious bite. If it can't then we truly are 'small potatoes' to Blizzard.
While your conclusion is logical based on circumstantial evidence, the problems, while similar, are not exactly the same and there are different factors. I stand by what I've said previously regarding what we can do to fix this.
Some bugs simply cannot be hotfixed due to the nature of the problem and that is the case here. It is not high priority enough to put together an emergency patch (far more work and trouble than a hotfix). It is not considered game-breaking, because, frankly, it isn't.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384535 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 1:31:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr |
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Q u o t e:
Gods of light help me, I was waiting for you to say that. I was waiting with baited breath for you to come around and say THAT right there!..
My apologies.
Aherm.
So says the restoration druid!!
Correction: so says the formerly Feral Combat Druid who PvPs in Cat form quite often.
Thank you for the assumption, however. I was waiting for someone to say that. :P
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384565 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 2:04:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr |
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Q u o t e:
Ug where to even start.
"It has nothing to do with priority here, but it is not high priority enough"
So besides the fact that it isn't a high priority it has nothing to do with priority?
"It is not considered game-breaking"
To a druid who plays mainly in cat form it IS game-breaking.
I edited my post -- I was interrupted mid-sentence here, and my train of thought derailed, so excuse that priority line.
As far as game-breaking goes... a Rogue doesn't have many options if Eviscerate is broken. A Druid has many more options in comparison. Therein lies the difference.
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384614 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 2:33:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr |
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Q u o t e:
This quote is against policy of forums. Please ban user than made it AND user that quoted him. Thank you.
Inappropriate language
This category includes both clear and masked language and/or links to websites containing such language or images which:
Are a mildly inappropriate reference to human anatomy or bodily functions
Are otherwise considered objectionable
If a player is found to have participated in such actions, he/she will:
Be given a warning and/or receive a temporary ban from the World of Warcraft forums, depending upon severity
Just because it is on the side of a CM doesn't make it 'ok'.
BAN them.
I know well how to moderate my forums, thank you, and "QFT" stands for "Quoted for truth".
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384679 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 2:39:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr |
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Q u o t e:
Umm ya I realize that, he reiterated policy violations. Now you approve Cay?
I just want to be clear here.
AndI can't believe you responded to it.
THANKS!
/am starting to like Cay more and more
As I said, I appreciate it, but that's not the way to report a policy violation and I know well how to moderate these forums. ;)
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384689 | Poster: Coreiel at 8/26/2005 11:06:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr |
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Q u o t e:
I can tell you that I have had absolutely abysmal luck with my Wildheart drops, though.
/signed.
:)
(/rofl)
Blizzard Forum Moderator
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post385235 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/24/2005 4:21:13 PM PDT
Subject: Class Representation: the Myth and the Truth *edited post* |
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There has been a lot of confusion and many misconceptions flying about what I do and what, therefore, I have failed to do.
Let me clear a few things up off the bat:
- I am not the Druid class representative. We do not have a class representative system of any kind.
- I am not obligated to post when I have nothing to give.
- I do communicate the Druid concerns to the developers as do all members of the Community Team, but that does not mean they will be fixed right away.
There is no Druid class representative, nor any sort of class representative system at all. All of us watch all classes. Now, the reason why I post here often is that, of all the community team members, I have a good deal of experience with the class and can use that experience to relate. I have a level 60 Druid and have played on live realms with both Feral Combat and Restoration Builds. I have also tested Balance builds on test and internal realms a good deal. (If you're looking for "proof" that I play a level 60 Druid, I don't know what to tell you. I don't post my character's name and realm for good reason; I play anonymously. He isn't named Caydiem. I can tell you that I have had absolutely abysmal luck with my Wildheart drops, though. If I see Scholomance one more time, I swear...) I know the class well and can sympathize with your concerns as a player myself.
Now, I've had fantastic conversations with you folks. But there is a time and a place for everything, and if I have nothing to give, I'm not about to strike up a discussion about the druid experience when the forums are full of angry and frustrated individuals. At that point, you're looking for information, and I don't have anything to give. Since I can't post "slice-of-life" type posts without a huge backlash, and I can't give you information that I don't have... I don't post.
You folks have taken me to task for the comment by Eyonix "exposing" that talent issue, but I explained this before. I knew you were going to be disappointed and I wanted to temper it with good news as well (the cat form buffs), which is why I was sitting on it very briefly. Unfortunately the cat was let out of the bag early and there was fallout. Blame me if you like; tempering bad news with good is a simple and logical thing to do in a position like mine and I wanted to give you the full perspective of 1.7 and 1.8.
As for the talent disappointment -- yes, I understand your disgruntled response to a lack of talent changes in 1.7, but I invite you to look at the Hunter changes to see how extensive they are and how much work went into them. That there is a lot of development time, and it took up the majority of the scheduled time for the class designers as far as 1.7 goes. They wanted to make sure they did it right, and they did. They also want to make sure they do the Druid talent changes properly, and that also takes time. Delaying the patch for that, however, is out of the question, so the Druid changes are one of the highest priorities for that team in 1.8. Schedules shift as unexpected issues arise. Things change. I have endeavored to keep you abreast of such things, but if you choose to react in a destructive and negative manner, advance notice of such changes may stem off to prevent such reactions.
The Ferocious Bite fix is another such issue where problems arose, the fix required more time to be implemented successfully, and it was pushed back. I'm sorry if this disappointed many of you, but these things can occur. We don't want to delay such things. We don't keep bugs in the game intentionally. We genuinely want to fix them, but we also want to do it right -- and that sometimes requires more time than was initially projected.
I am sorry if you feel I am not doing my job as Assistant Community Manager and invite you to eMail my supervisor at wowcmfeedback@blizzard.com if you wish to give feedback of any kind on my performance. If your anger or disappointment is directed at my lack of performing the Class Representative job, however, I must remind you that it is not, in fact, my job. I love my Druid and eagerly await the upcoming changes just as you do; I'm a Druid player, and I understand your position, but I am not an official class advocate.
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post380654 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/24/2005 4:37:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
That's alright Cay, you can go now.
I personally thank you for your efforts, but I think the class would be better off if you didn't come back with any further news or developments. Just do your job in the background, because when you step into the limelight, someone behind the curtains trips you.
"The class would be better off"? I would like you to elaborate on this, if you don't mind.
The majority of the Druids who post on these forums are reasonable folks, and it's one of the reasons I love this forum and this class. There are exceptions, and even the most mature of community participants can show their displeasure if something isn't going their way. But I ask you honestly -- what would you rather see? A tidbit of upcoming information that is subject to change that gives you some idea of the class's direction, or complete and utter silence until the patch notes are released?
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post380707 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/24/2005 4:44:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
I don't see any reason not to have class reps, why doesn't Blizzard hire them? Or at least pick volunteers?
Volunteers are a whole can of worms that I'd rather not open, but to state it briefly, there are some legal concerns surrounding any such system.
More than that, though, a single mind advocating class concerns can lead to a great deal of bias and leaning towards a particular build. I'm not the only one that communicates Druid feedback, and it's all derived from your posts, players with a variety of builds and perspectives. This presents a more complete picture of the class than any one class advocate could present over the long run.
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post380723 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/24/2005 6:19:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr *edited post* |
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About the Wildheart thing...
Yes, I'm still at that point. I have a level 60 Druid but it's not the only character I play. I'd love to be doing Molten Core and do plan on doing it with my Druid in time, but my situation is somewhat awkward. I was in a small guild, and that small guild more or less dissolved. There are raid-worthy guilds on my realm, and I do have decent relations with a few members, but I don't have the time currently to work my way into the hearts of a pick-up MC raid.
I'll get there, but the road is long and, as I've told the Hunter community, I am giving them a fair shake and levelling up my Hunter also. :)
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post380960 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/24/2005 6:31:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
So how about a read on what you're wearing on the druid now?
A lot of Dire Maul gear -- Bracers of Prosperity, Unyielding Maul and such. I lost out on the Boots of the Shrieker to a Shaman (?!) in Scholomance but did manage to land Death's Clutch and the Ghoul Skin Leggings. I have the Hammer of the Grand Crusader for my healing exploits. I've been gathering a good bit of Feral gear (Shadowcraft Gloves are going to be my new best friend after the patch), as well as +healing gear to play around with. As there were very few rogues in my guild, I have a decent amount of leather goods sitting in the bank. ;)
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post380981 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 11:47:55 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr *edited post* |
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A few clarifications:
The speculation that the fishing contest was done instead of Druid fixes is completely incorrect. There are various teams amongst the developers, and the class team did not work on a world event.
I pass along what the developers tell me (yes, they told me the Ferocious Bite fix is scheduled for 1.8, regardless of what you believe -- not all bugs can be hotfixed) and pass your feedback to them. However, there are a few misconceptions surrounding this process. Namely:
- If a bug is reported, it can and should be fixed as soon as possible in a hotfix;
- If a change is asked for by many, it should be implemented, and failure to do so is a failure of Blizzard's;
- Changes announced and then pushed back mean that the developers care little for the class and/or the class is viewed as low priority.
I know most of you don't think this way, and those that do have these misconceptions might not have all of them. Still, I would like to clarify the development process somewhat here.
- Bugs cannot be fixed with the snap of the fingers (in all but the rarest cases). Once it is known, the cause must be determined, which can take a bit depending on the case. Once that is determined, the process of fixing it -- while maintaining the integrity of all else, an important part of fixing bugs in a complex piece of work like an MMO -- begins. Internal tests are performed to ensure that the fix is valid and other parts of the game that may have been affected are functioning. If the fix passes that, its priority is weighed. Some fixes can be made with a hotfix; others cannot. In the case of Ferocious Bite, the decision was reached that it was not a gamebreaking problem for the Druid and could wait til a patch, but the fix made failed somewhere along that path I mentioned, so more work is required.
- Design changes and additions are created and implemented based on the overall balance of the game. Suggestions and insights from the playerbase are fantastic and they are passed along, but game design is not a democracy and there will be times -- probably fairly often -- when something is suggested that is not put into the game. We are not obligated to make changes to the game based on your own perception of how it should work.
- Scheduling of features and changes is based on a variety of factors, largely internal. We do operate on an internal schedule. In an ideal world, things would:
- Be designed instantly and perfectly balanced with the rest of the game on the first go;
- Be implemented quicker than you can blink in a flawless fashion;
- Pass the tests with flying colors;
- Get implemented into the game immediately after everything was set.
That, sadly, is not how the real world functions. Setbacks occur. Higher priority items -- critical issues -- pop up. (I am aware that some issues with the Druid class may seem critical to you, but in comparison to the issues I'm alluding to, they're pretty small potatoes.) As the deadline draws closer, hard decisions must be made as far as what goes into a patch and what stays behind. What stays normally consists of both a) bugs/features that have not yet had all major issues resolved with them; and b) changes that require major work. Many of the Druid changes you were told about factored into one of these two categories, and so they were held back, but that does not mean you rate any less as far as priority goes. Sometimes it's a simple time issue.
In closing, while I understand your frustrations regarding the setbacks, I ask that you look at the bigger picture and have patience. Changes are coming, and the developers are listening (even if they choose not to do what you ask of them).
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384306 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 12:17:07 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Wait.
Let me get this straight. There's a team of developers devoted to working on the classes. As in, they don't focus on this class or that class, but work on concerns regarding the CLASSES in the game?
Okay, given this division of labour, did this team have a higher priority rather than fixing the druid bugs for this patch ASIDE from the hunters' retooling?
What were the critical items that, in regards to THIS team, pushed them back?
Wait, I know, you can't say. No need to answer that.
As you describe it we're small potatoes in the priority list of the devs. There's some honesty in that, at least. However, considering the understandably limited view of what you call "the big picture", you CANNOT ask us to be patient. These are our concerns. We are not aware of servers suddenly catching fire because of class code. We are not aware of a spell or ability that suddenly renders the character either a god (oops, shaman) or destroys all their equipment and downs the server in the proccess. So, we should and will continue to raise all holy hell in our own private corner. After all, squeaky wheels, eh?
And if the team finished their work and it was a all-inclusive priority list that pushed druid concerns back, then we can say that it WAS the fishing contest that IS getting into this next patch. Why? Because all the other non-critical items that are coming in with it were not sacrificed for the sake of the druid changes. This is assuming, of course, that all teams share one priority list.
Again, let me be emphatic, given the limited perspective that Blizzard (through you) is willing (which is their prerogative) to give us, how can you ask us to be patient?
No, it was NOT the Fishing Contest, for the last time. The teams do not share one priority list as they are all responsible for their own section of the game.
(EDIT for Hoofinit: Ever hear the term "Too many cooks?" The people working on the Fishing Contest may not be familiar at all with the inner workings of the classes or the reason why the bug fix wasn't working properly. Many unsure fingers plucking at a large, complex knot will take longer than a few precise, knowledgeable hands.)
The Class Team, in this case, was busy retooling the Hunter changes. I'm not sure if you followed what was occurring, but due to the magnitude of the changes coming for the Hunters, they required a great deal of testing and modifications to the original talent plan. They decided to polish and properly balance the Hunter changes instead of releasing an unbalanced, potentially game-breaking version of their changes and more Druid changes (which would probably be in an even worse unfinished state).
Since your assumption was based on a singular priority list (which is incorrect), much of what you said doesn't really apply, but I'll attempt to address the other points.
Druid changes are "small potatoes" to the class team when, say, a large, critical bug shows up in internal tests relating to one class-related change that causes a server crash. I know you're "not aware" of much of this, which is why I am endeavoring to make you aware that these things can and do happen during the course of development. I'm not informing you of specific cases; I'm explaining the general setbacks that can and do occur over the course of developing a game patch, which should hopefully help to temper the questions of "Why isn't it here now?" with some understanding of the pitfalls of the process.
How can I ask for your patience? It's simple.
I know very well that players -- by their nature -- will be very centrally focused on their class of choice, with all its weaknesses and problems. That isn't a bad thing; it's how the mind tends to work, and it provides a plethora of perspectives that I can use as feedback. So by that token, I know that asking for patience when one is so focused on one aspect of the game can be frustrating.
That's why I'm not only asking for patience, but explaining why patience is needed. I'm giving you a look into the facts and foibles of the development cycle, explaining why I'm counseling patience. And, at the heart of it, I don't have anything to give you but requests for patience. I can't make the patch come any faster or the bugs fix themselves, nor can you; patience is the virtue left to us all. ;)[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384370 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 12:26:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
So you're saying "Use Rip instead", and that's that?
No, thank you, I rather get what I paid for rather than something ALMOST as good. That's like drinking milk just a little past it's prime. Bearable, but still not good enough.
Kaegan, I'll put it to you plainly -- the Ferocious Bite fix must be fixed in a patch, and it is not critical enough for an emergency patch to be made solely for its repair. As it cannot be fixed in 1.7, it's scheduled for 1.8 at this time, and that is simply the current state of affairs. The developers know how you feel, but that knowledge does not necessarily change the direction of what is occurring.
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384391 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 1:18:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
The bottom line is that rogues had a VERY similar bug and it was hotfixed but what druids are told = next major patch (1.8)
If eviscerate can be hotfixed then so can ferocious bite. If it can't then we truly are 'small potatoes' to Blizzard.
While your conclusion is logical based on circumstantial evidence, the problems, while similar, are not exactly the same and there are different factors. I stand by what I've said previously regarding what we can do to fix this.
Some bugs simply cannot be hotfixed due to the nature of the problem and that is the case here. It is not high priority enough to put together an emergency patch (far more work and trouble than a hotfix). It is not considered game-breaking, because, frankly, it isn't.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384535 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 1:31:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Gods of light help me, I was waiting for you to say that. I was waiting with baited breath for you to come around and say THAT right there!..
My apologies.
Aherm.
So says the restoration druid!!
Correction: so says the formerly Feral Combat Druid who PvPs in Cat form quite often.
Thank you for the assumption, however. I was waiting for someone to say that. :P
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384565 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 2:04:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Ug where to even start.
"It has nothing to do with priority here, but it is not high priority enough"
So besides the fact that it isn't a high priority it has nothing to do with priority?
"It is not considered game-breaking"
To a druid who plays mainly in cat form it IS game-breaking.
I edited my post -- I was interrupted mid-sentence here, and my train of thought derailed, so excuse that priority line.
As far as game-breaking goes... a Rogue doesn't have many options if Eviscerate is broken. A Druid has many more options in comparison. Therein lies the difference.
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384614 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 2:33:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
This quote is against policy of forums. Please ban user than made it AND user that quoted him. Thank you.
Inappropriate language
This category includes both clear and masked language and/or links to websites containing such language or images which:
Are a mildly inappropriate reference to human anatomy or bodily functions
Are otherwise considered objectionable
If a player is found to have participated in such actions, he/she will:
Be given a warning and/or receive a temporary ban from the World of Warcraft forums, depending upon severity
Just because it is on the side of a CM doesn't make it 'ok'.
BAN them.
I know well how to moderate my forums, thank you, and "QFT" stands for "Quoted for truth".
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384679 | Poster: Caydiem at 8/26/2005 2:39:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Class Representation: the Myth and the Tr *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Umm ya I realize that, he reiterated policy violations. Now you approve Cay?
I just want to be clear here.
AndI can't believe you responded to it.
THANKS!
/am starting to like Cay more and more
As I said, I appreciate it, but that's not the way to report a policy violation and I know well how to moderate these forums. ;)
- Caydiem -
/moo
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=380654&p=#post384689 |
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