Poster: Caydiem at 2/18/2005 9:56:46 PM PST
Subject: Response to Druid Feedback! |
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Here is the response I've received from the designers after giving them your feedback. We sat down and discussed these various points. I've described what's going to be changed where applicable and given explanations as to why aspects of the class were designed in a certain way. I hope you find this an informative and enlightening read!
Shapeshifting to Escape Movement-Impairing Effects -- What Should Work and What Shouldn't
Many of you have expressed concern about the Shaman's Frost Shock and the Mage's frost spells. The slow effect remains on a Druid even after shapeshifting. This is not acting as intended and should be fixed in time. The Daze effect, however, is not meant to be removed by this act. The thought behind escaping through shapeshifting is that your physical form is difficult to hold through entangling. The philosophy is similar with polymorph in that the Druid has greater control over his physical form and cannot be transformed against his will when in animal form. Even with frost effects, you're changing your shape and shaking off the frost clinging to you. Daze, however, exists to ensure there is some risk from running away -- it is a mechanic in place for balance reasons, and no class can dispel it. The effect is equivalent to a knock on the head and thus would not be dispelled by changing one's form; it is a mental effect rather than a physical one.
Lack of a Focus Statistic -- The Large Wardrobe Dilemma
Druids sometimes feel they need to have multiple equipment sets with different focus statistics to be effective, as there is no one obvious statistic that is the primary focus of the Druid. This is an issue with any hybrid class, however; the Shaman faces similar choices, for example. The problem lies in that there is no "optimal" play-style for the class; several different strategies work and work well. I can tell you that, unlike Rogues, cat form relies on Strength more than Agility for damage. Point for point, you'll find your damage is aided more by enhancing Strength. Spirit is one statistic that can be a great help for Druids or not benefit their build much at all depending on style of play; remember that mana regenerates while in beast form. Another point, also, is that it isn't just Druids that have to consider multiple outfits depending on the situation -- many high level areas can be made easier with certain gear, and this affects everyone.
The general consensus on this issue is that it's a natural consideration of a hybrid class. Examine your style of play, look at what would most benefit you, and outfit your character along those lines.
Cat Claws Aren't So Sharp -- Looking at Cat Form Damage and Abilities
On the subject of animal forms, one of the top concerns of the community has been that cat form DPS is somewhat lacking past level 40 or so. The designers acknowledge that this is a problem and they plan on adjusting the higher-level damage to be more in line with the original concept. Keep in mind that a Druid in cat form is not supposed to have roughly the same DPS as a similarly-leveled Rogue; however, it should improve from its current incarnation.
One of the changes planned is the addition of a direct-damage finishing move. This should help the Druid cat form significantly.
The Ups and Downs of the Feral Combat Talent Tree
When examining the Druid talent trees, the Feral Combat tree has been noted to be somewhat lackluster in comparison to Balance and Restoration, especially concerning the one-point abilities (Feral Charge, Feline Swiftness and Primal Instinct). Naturally the task of designing a single tree to enhance what are essentially two mini-classes of the Druid isn't easy. It's important not to favor one form over the other in the creation of such talents, which is why there are three one-point talents in this tree alone: one for bear, one for cat, and one for all. Now, that said, the designers are aware that it's not the most popular of talent builds to follow, and so they will be taking a good look at the talent tree with the intention of improving it where they can. The planned enhancements to the forms should hopefully boost the number of Druids staying with this tree, also…
Speaking of enhancements to the forms, I feel this is a good time to mention the new, upcoming Bear Form ability currently being worked on that causes rage generated to heal the Druid instead of actually generating rage.
As a side note, some of you noted that there are form-based talents in the other trees and have questioned why they are not in the Feral Combat tree. The reasoning behind these choices is primarily that Druids are meant to use their forms, regardless of their talent build. Those talents are there to encourage you to do so -- and to give benefits in that regard -- no matter your specialization.
Rebirth -- Its Purpose and the Myth of "Wipe Recovery"
When it comes to filling the primary healer role, many Druids are concerned that Rebirth does not help in wipe recovery, and thus they are less desirable in groups. The kicker is this: technically, Priests do not have "wipe recovery" either when they're alone, and yet they're also primary healers. The ability to recover from a complete wipe (i.e. everyone is dead) is given to Shaman primarily; Paladins and Warlocks can also aid in wipe recovery combined with a resurrecting class (or engineer with jumper cables, even). The Druid is not meant to fill the "wipe recovery" requirement.
However, what Rebirth can do is prevent a wipe. Having someone critical die mid-fight can be devastating, but bringing them back can turn the tide and give you that extra edge to win. Of course, in order for this to be true, the resurrection timer must no longer affect this spell, and that is indeed going to take place. Once the change is made, your target should be able to come back to life immediately. We are also reducing the mana cost of this spell line so it should be more viable in combat. We hope that these changes will help Rebirth's utility in combat and make Druids more desirable in groups and raids.
Hurricane -- It Hurts Being the Eye of the Storm
The channeling aspect of the Hurricane spell has met with some unpopularity in the Druid community. The spell was designed with channeling in mind -- its previous casting type was a bug. The way it worked in its bugged form, it was comparable to the damage dealt by the Mage. The Druid is not meant to be strong in dealing area-of-effect damage, and the fact that Hurricane was nearly as good as a core AE spell of the Mage -- the class that does specialize in such damage -- was a balance problem.
The spell is not meant to be used as a strong solo spell. There are group situations, however, where there's no such thing as too much area-of-effect damage. Many high-level instances have areas where it's ideal to whip out a spell such as this; it is meant to be situational, however. Mind you, the developers will be watching the relative popularity of the spell and how often it's used; for now, however, it is going to remain in its current form.
Why Can't I Root? -- The Strangest Trees Grow in Azeroth
One of the longest and loudest laments of the Druid has been the inability to use Entangling Roots (and by extension, Nature's Grasp) indoors. I discussed this with the designers, but their stance is firm; this will remain an outdoors-only spell.
The designers want to keep crowd control limited and specialized. The content of the world is balanced with crowd control spells in mind, depending on the type of monster and the area in which they dwell. Root does not discriminate between monster types, and as such it is very powerful outdoors. Outdoor content is balanced with root in mind, as are "outdoor" flagged instances such as Zul'Farrak. Adding the ability to root indoors would call for a great deal of rebalancing indoor content, as now they would have to account for one creature possibly being rooted in addition to all other forms of crowd control. It would also give Druids more crowd control power than they are intended to have.
As I'm sure you know, though, the Spider Belt was indeed changed to have a 30-minute cooldown, which should help somewhat on the PvP side of the Druid game.
More to Come!
These were the top concerns I drew from the feedback you posted, and I hope you find this information satisfactory. I am not abandoning this forum now that this post is done, however -- please, let me know what else you're concerned about that I did not cover, or what new issues have arisen from the information listed, and I'll do my best to follow up. Thank you again for all your wonderful feedback, and know that you are heard!
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77293 | | | Poster: Caydiem at 2/18/2005 11:07:41 PM PST
Subject: Re: Response to Druid Feedback! |
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Q u o t e:
EDIT: They should still change the feral combat tree so its more usefull though...
Did you miss this bit? ;)
"Now, that said, the designers are aware that it's not the most popular of talent builds to follow, and so they will be taking a good look at the talent tree with the intention of improving it where they can."
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77365 | Poster: Caydiem at 2/18/2005 11:09:47 PM PST
Subject: Re: Response to Druid Feedback! |
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Q u o t e:
- No cooldown for rez?
Oooh it sounds like they're taking out the cooldown. That would be awesome.
Hmmm, sorry if I gave that impression, but that's not what I said. Currently there's a bug with Rebirth that causes the resurrection timer to be applied (thus you can rez someone and they have to wait 2 minutes to actually come back to life). That timer is what will no longer apply.
We're going to try to get the changes in as soon as they're ready. I can't say quite when that will be, though.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77376 | Poster: Caydiem at 2/18/2005 11:14:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Response to Druid Feedback! |
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From what I understand, the channeling component will stay on Tranquility. It can be used effectively, but it's a situational spell.
Also, Kameelyan, Enrage will not be changing into something else; as I said, it'll be a new ability. :)
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77388 | Poster: Caydiem at 2/18/2005 11:17:47 PM PST
Subject: Re: Response to Druid Feedback! |
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Supeg, I did mention the underlying concern. What you're mentioning is a suggested solution, and what I was trying to address were the concerns themselves.
The developers do understand the issue where cat/bear DPS does not improve past 60 besides stat boosts -- they have to address it in a more worldly fashion, however. Remember, classes like the Mage also suffer this sort of problem with their primary damage output once they hit cap. They'll be looking into it.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77397 | Poster: Caydiem at 2/18/2005 11:19:34 PM PST
Subject: Re: Response to Druid Feedback! |
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I'm not sure how the new Bear ability will interact with Enrage, but I'll see what I can find out. Be advised it may take me a while, as I'm sure they need to test it. :)
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77403 | Poster: Caydiem at 2/18/2005 11:22:46 PM PST
Subject: Re: Response to Druid Feedback! |
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There are indoor areas that aren't instances, Serinos, and those are similarly balanced.
They do know about the PvP aspect but, again, that's part of the balance of the game to my knowledge. Druids are supposed to be more deadly outdoors.
(EDIT: The Indoors-flagged Outdoor areas are a separate but related issue that is also being reviewed.)
I will check into the dispelling of Regrowth and Rejuvenation for you.
And this is not a laundry list of everything they plan, I'm sure, but it was a list of how they view and are addressing the major concerns of the class. :)[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77412 | Poster: Caydiem at 2/18/2005 11:26:40 PM PST
Subject: Re: Response to Druid Feedback! |
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Serinos, as a level 57 restoration Druid, I function just fine as a primary healer in 55+ instances. There are situations where Tranquility does its job, and situations where other methods can be used.
Now, that isn't to say that we're plugging our ears and saying it's never going to change -- that's just my opinion, and I don't design the class. ;) Explain to me precisely how it is that Druids cannot function as a primary healer in high level instances without it -- and be specific and objective, if you can -- and I'll bring it up during my followup. :)
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77425 | Poster: Caydiem at 2/18/2005 11:28:05 PM PST
Subject: Re: Response to Druid Feedback! |
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Q u o t e:
Cay,
I have a question that i would like answered....Why are Caves not coded as outdoors? take Maraudon for instance, you see roots and vines all over the ground, but a druid cant call these up to aid our allies? plz reply
Again, those areas are balanced without root in mind. I know the sense of it is somewhat odd... but you can root underwater. ;) For the reasons why the balance there won't change, check the original post.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77430 | Poster: Caydiem at 2/18/2005 11:29:54 PM PST
Subject: Re: Response to Druid Feedback! |
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Q u o t e:
Had to switch over from Feral, eh? =P
Well, as I've said elsewhere, I did it for two reasons:
1) I wanted to see what everyone was raving about in comparison to get a better handle on the class; and
2) Contrary to what some may think, I do not play in an isolated shell. I'm in a guild, and that guild is somewhat devoid of high-level healers. Thus the little ol' Druid got nudged roughly into the primary healer role for group outings. ;)
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77441 | Poster: Caydiem at 2/18/2005 11:33:16 PM PST
Subject: Re: Response to Druid Feedback! |
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Q u o t e:
Oh! Thought of something I'd like to get an answer to: Aggro management in healer/caster form.
When I'm a biped, I want to manage aggro properly. Now, I've maxed out subtlety. But what I would like is some way to do a targeted "ignore me" like cower, but in my human form. Do you think they'd ever put this in?
So far I've relied on the Salvation aura from a party paladin, but I'd like a targetable anti-aggro.
I believe there's something being pondered that should address this at least partially, but more than that I can't say. We need to be sure of some things first. :)
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77448 | Poster: Caydiem at 2/18/2005 11:42:43 PM PST
Subject: Re: Response to Druid Feedback! |
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I don't know about the set, Tammuz.. but again, I'll follow up at some point soon.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77477 | Poster: Caydiem at 2/19/2005 12:04:42 AM PST
Subject: Re: Response to Druid Feedback! |
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Now, when I say "some point soon", I mean as soon as I have a few good, solid questions to bring to the designers and as soon as their schedule permits me to sit down and speak with them about it. I don't want to give an exact date as to when I'll follow up because I don't know right yet, but I will.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77525 | Poster: Caydiem at 2/19/2005 12:19:56 AM PST
Subject: Re: Response to Druid Feedback! |
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I'll ask for some clarification on the AGI vs. STR issue and see if I can eke out some more descriptive explanations from them when I do my followup. :)
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77559 | Poster: Caydiem at 2/18/2005 9:56:46 PM PST
Subject: Response to Druid Feedback! *edited post* |
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Here is the response I've received from the designers after giving them your feedback. We sat down and discussed these various points. I've described what's going to be changed where applicable and given explanations as to why aspects of the class were designed in a certain way. I hope you find this an informative and enlightening read!
Shapeshifting to Escape Movement-Impairing Effects -- What Should Work and What Shouldn't
Many of you have expressed concern about the Shaman's Frost Shock and the Mage's frost spells. The slow effect remains on a Druid even after shapeshifting. This is not acting as intended and should be fixed in time. The Daze effect, however, is not meant to be removed by this act. The thought behind escaping through shapeshifting is that your physical form is difficult to hold through entangling. The philosophy is similar with polymorph in that the Druid has greater control over his physical form and cannot be transformed against his will when in animal form. Even with frost effects, you're changing your shape and shaking off the frost clinging to you. Daze, however, exists to ensure there is some risk from running away -- it is a mechanic in place for balance reasons, and no class can dispel it. The effect is equivalent to a knock on the head and thus would not be dispelled by changing one's form; it is a mental effect rather than a physical one.
Lack of a Focus Statistic -- The Large Wardrobe Dilemma
Druids sometimes feel they need to have multiple equipment sets with different focus statistics to be effective, as there is no one obvious statistic that is the primary focus of the Druid. This is an issue with any hybrid class, however; the Shaman faces similar choices, for example. The problem lies in that there is no "optimal" play-style for the class; several different strategies work and work well. I can tell you that, unlike Rogues, cat form relies on Strength more than Agility for damage. Point for point, you'll find your damage is aided more by enhancing Strength. Spirit is one statistic that can be a great help for Druids or not benefit their build much at all depending on style of play; remember that mana regenerates while in beast form. Another point, also, is that it isn't just Druids that have to consider multiple outfits depending on the situation -- many high level areas can be made easier with certain gear, and this affects everyone.
The general consensus on this issue is that it's a natural consideration of a hybrid class. Examine your style of play, look at what would most benefit you, and outfit your character along those lines.
Cat Claws Aren't So Sharp -- Looking at Cat Form Damage and Abilities
On the subject of animal forms, one of the top concerns of the community has been that cat form DPS is somewhat lacking past level 40 or so. The designers acknowledge that this is a problem and they plan on adjusting the higher-level damage to be more in line with the original concept. Keep in mind that a Druid in cat form is not supposed to have roughly the same DPS as a similarly-leveled Rogue; however, it should improve from its current incarnation.
One of the changes planned is the addition of a direct-damage finishing move. This should help the Druid cat form significantly.
The Ups and Downs of the Feral Combat Talent Tree
When examining the Druid talent trees, the Feral Combat tree has been noted to be somewhat lackluster in comparison to Balance and Restoration, especially concerning the one-point abilities (Feral Charge, Feline Swiftness and Primal Instinct). Naturally the task of designing a single tree to enhance what are essentially two mini-classes of the Druid isn't easy. It's important not to favor one form over the other in the creation of such talents, which is why there are three one-point talents in this tree alone: one for bear, one for cat, and one for all. Now, that said, the designers are aware that it's not the most popular of talent builds to follow, and so they will be taking a good look at the talent tree with the intention of improving it where they can. The planned enhancements to the forms should hopefully boost the number of Druids staying with this tree, also…
Speaking of enhancements to the forms, I feel this is a good time to mention the new, upcoming Bear Form ability currently being worked on that causes rage generated to heal the Druid instead of actually generating rage.
As a side note, some of you noted that there are form-based talents in the other trees and have questioned why they are not in the Feral Combat tree. The reasoning behind these choices is primarily that Druids are meant to use their forms, regardless of their talent build. Those talents are there to encourage you to do so -- and to give benefits in that regard -- no matter your specialization.
Rebirth -- Its Purpose and the Myth of "Wipe Recovery"
When it comes to filling the primary healer role, many Druids are concerned that Rebirth does not help in wipe recovery, and thus they are less desirable in groups. The kicker is this: technically, Priests do not have "wipe recovery" either when they're alone, and yet they're also primary healers. The ability to recover from a complete wipe (i.e. everyone is dead) is given to Shaman primarily; Paladins and Warlocks can also aid in wipe recovery combined with a resurrecting class (or engineer with jumper cables, even). The Druid is not meant to fill the "wipe recovery" requirement.
However, what Rebirth can do is prevent a wipe. Having someone critical die mid-fight can be devastating, but bringing them back can turn the tide and give you that extra edge to win. Of course, in order for this to be true, the resurrection timer must no longer affect this spell, and that is indeed going to take place. Once the change is made, your target should be able to come back to life immediately. We are also reducing the mana cost of this spell line so it should be more viable in combat. We hope that these changes will help Rebirth's utility in combat and make Druids more desirable in groups and raids.
Hurricane -- It Hurts Being the Eye of the Storm
The channeling aspect of the Hurricane spell has met with some unpopularity in the Druid community. The spell was designed with channeling in mind -- its previous casting type was a bug. The way it worked in its bugged form, it was comparable to the damage dealt by the Mage. The Druid is not meant to be strong in dealing area-of-effect damage, and the fact that Hurricane was nearly as good as a core AE spell of the Mage -- the class that does specialize in such damage -- was a balance problem.
The spell is not meant to be used as a strong solo spell. There are group situations, however, where there's no such thing as too much area-of-effect damage. Many high-level instances have areas where it's ideal to whip out a spell such as this; it is meant to be situational, however. Mind you, the developers will be watching the relative popularity of the spell and how often it's used; for now, however, it is going to remain in its current form.
Why Can't I Root? -- The Strangest Trees Grow in Azeroth
One of the longest and loudest laments of the Druid has been the inability to use Entangling Roots (and by extension, Nature's Grasp) indoors. I discussed this with the designers, but their stance is firm; this will remain an outdoors-only spell.
The designers want to keep crowd control limited and specialized. The content of the world is balanced with crowd control spells in mind, depending on the type of monster and the area in which they dwell. Root does not discriminate between monster types, and as such it is very powerful outdoors. Outdoor content is balanced with root in mind, as are "outdoor" flagged instances such as Zul'Farrak. Adding the ability to root indoors would call for a great deal of rebalancing indoor content, as now they would have to account for one creature possibly being rooted in addition to all other forms of crowd control. It would also give Druids more crowd control power than they are intended to have.
As I'm sure you know, though, the Spider Belt was indeed changed to have a 30-minute cooldown, which should help somewhat on the PvP side of the Druid game.
More to Come!
These were the top concerns I drew from the feedback you posted, and I hope you find this information satisfactory. I am not abandoning this forum now that this post is done, however -- please, let me know what else you're concerned about that I did not cover, or what new issues have arisen from the information listed, and I'll do my best to follow up. Thank you again for all your wonderful feedback, and know that you are heard!
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77293 | Poster: Caydiem at 2/18/2005 11:07:41 PM PST
Subject: Re: Response to Druid Feedback! *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
EDIT: They should still change the feral combat tree so its more usefull though...
Did you miss this bit? ;)
"Now, that said, the designers are aware that it's not the most popular of talent builds to follow, and so they will be taking a good look at the talent tree with the intention of improving it where they can."
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=77293&p=#post77365 |
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